LionChief Plus. Compatible with Legacy?

[8ntruck]

I notice that there are a lot of offerings in the new Lionel catalog with the LionChief Plus operating system. Anybody know if these are compatible with the TMCC/Legacy control systems? The catalog is not very clear on this point.

[sir james I]

With 18 volts on the track, they will run on and with TMCC/ Legacy at the  same time. But you must use the controller that comes with the engine. You can even run several of them at the same time as long as it's a different road name. Like engines with the same road name will all respond to the same controller.

[8ntruck]

That might explain why the TPC300 and TPC400 are no longer being cataloged. I was kind of hoping that the LionChief system would be addressable from Legacy.

[sir james I]

Nope you must use the controller that comes with the engine. Each controller has the engine type printed on it so you just pick up the correct controller and run-em.

[BigAl 956]

 You can only control a Lion Chief + engine conventionally or with the dedicated hand control shipped with it. LC+ cannot be controlled by a legacy or TMCC control. The only common point between them is the 18v  on the track.

When Lionel first introduced LC you couldn't even use conventional control but they quickly corrected that with LC+.. I have heard a lot of pro LC comments how wonderful it is for the hobby and all that but I have my doubts that an opportunity was missed here. These sets have no growth potential. How expensive would it have been to add TMCC control capability especially since Lionel owns the technology. 

[8ntruck]

BigAl - I was having the same thoughts about the future expansion. Starting with a basic LionChief set, one would have to add other equipment (transformer, TMCC, etc.) to add pretty much any other locomotive.

[MAstfalk]

I would have to agree with Big Al about the growth potential. My son saw the Lionel demo at theYork Meet and really was intrigued by LionChief. He is 10 years old and has asked for the Area 51 set for Christmas. We decided to do it as a combined b-day and Christmas present since his b-day is in a couple weeks. He can ask for and get other pieces for Christmas and build a set. This may be the only potential - attracting the younger generations. However, it is short sighted. Here's why -

While I don't have a layout yet, I have everything for it. I collected several starter sets, accessories and both DCS and TMCC when's son was little. I have all MTH with protosound and one K-Line that has TMCC. I went the MTH route due to the value in their starter sets and DCS being upgradable. Had a bad experience with a Lionel starter set that started me on that track.

However, the LionChief looked very promising in York. Lionel was doing a good job of showmanship and marketing with it. While it might pull some money out of my pocket now, it won't get far in the long if I can't at least run it on the TMCC controller I have.

The iPad app looks great too - but I can't plunk down thousands of dollars just to operate my trains. I refuse to spend $800 or even over $1000 on an engine that has Legacy. This is supposed to be fun, not financially crippling. And right now, I'm just a seasonal user at best, until I get the space for a big layout.

If Lionel can do one thing and one thing only, that would be to make ALL of their non-conventional engines TMCC. They will get more hobbyists in the long run.

[MichRR714]

BigAl 956

How expensive would it have been to add TMCC control capability especially since Lionel owns the technology. 

Too expensive to keep the price where it needs to be for the entry or mid-level products line.

[lion88roar]

I think people are missing the big picture here.

1. LionChief and the new LionChief stuff are at an entry level price point.
2. TMCC is so out of date that adding the electrical components to operate under that protocol is just not worth it.
3. LCS is where Lionel is going - TMCC is dying a slow death.
4. Lionel just released the LCS schematics for external developers to build LCS compatible components... read that again.

In the near future you will see LCS upgrade boards, LCS accessories, LCS engines, and other LCS components (maybe an add-on IR receiver like is used in the IR track). MTH has never, and to my knowledge, has no plans to release the DCS schematics for external development.

[BigAl 956]

Too expensive? Whats the difference between a LC+ control board and one that runs on TMCC? I have to believe the cost of goods difference for the actual circuit board is pennies if that. TMCC is 20 year old technology. Lionel paid that off many years ago. The only thing I can think of is there is a deal with Neal Young that pays him xx dollars for every TMCC board that is sold. However I have to think that deal expired years ago. 

I used to be an engineer in the pinball business and I am very familiar with the cost of building a circuit board. It's all in the licensing and R&D. The actual board cost is next to nothing. In this case Lionel developed, or licensed, a whole new technology instead oft using 20 year old long paid for circuitry that would have cost them nothing more but would have made these engines much more competitive. I have to believe the decision to leave out compatibility with TMCC strictly a marketing decision and a flawed one, IMHO. at that.

[sir james I]

Lionel claims some of the key circuit parts were outdated and no longer available. Whether that's true or not, only Lionel knows.

[nblum]

"In this case Lionel developed, or licensed, a whole new technology instead oft using 20 year old long paid for circuitry that would have cost them nothing more but would have made these engines much more competitive. I have to believe the decision to leave out compatibility with TMCC strictly a marketing decision and a flawed one, IMHO. at that."

Lionel is no doubt buying off the shelf radio control industry 2.4 GHz spread spectrum digital equipment that neither needed inventing nor licensing.  This technology is very cheap and widely available from multiple (>3) sources.  There is little question in my mind that this is a lot cheaper than Legacy or TMCC for Lionel to produce.  The goal was to have an intermediate and beginner level command equivalent that allows multiple locomotives to operate independently without block wiring, and to operate multiple locomotives on one or more loops of track independently. 

So yes, a marketing decision, but one that brought command control to the consumer at lower cost than anything out there.  LionChief sets with street prices as low as $150 and locos as little as $100.  Semi-scale locos that underprice MTH Railking by as much as $100 or more.  And no need to buy TMCC, Legacy or DCS for $150-400.  That last bit is the real cost savings.  No need for additional equipment to have command functionality.

So you're a dealer who has sold one LionChief set to a new hobbyist.  What is going to be an easier sell, another two locos with their own remotes, or a TMCC/Legacy equivalent command base and controller?  This technology isn't directed at those who already have TMCC/Legacy, but at those starting out in the hobby or those who are looking for purchase number two.  That said, these locos work fine with conventional locos (at above about 10 volts), TMCC, Legacy or DCS locos.  The only downside is you cannot use your command handheld to control the loco, you use the remote that comes with each loco.

[trestrainfan]

I agree with nblum's comments, although I have no knowledge about the differences in manufacturing costs.

I regard to comments about TMCC being obsolete. That is probably true. However, there are the ERR products that are a Lionel product since Lionel bought the company a few years ago and the owner became a Lionel employee.

The ERR product line is comparable to TMCC (probably better speed control), and marketed as an after market add on to add remote control and/or improved sound to conventional control equipment. It is something Lionel could have offered rather going into the radio control equipment of the LionChief and LionChief Plus product lines.

Perhaps the manufacturing costs of the LionChief and LionChief Plus control and sound have enough of a manufacturing cost savings compared to ERR products that Lionel decided to go in that direction. The LionChief products are certainly simple to set up and operate and don't require the purchase of a separate remote control system. If Lionel did use ERR components, the hobbyist would need to purchase either a Cab-1L/Base-1L or a Legacy system to operate the engines.

[rtraincollector]

My biggest down fall from what I understand if I have 6 engines I have to remember which controller runs which engine or at least have them marked so I know gee I have a miscalculation and have 2 engines heading for a crash and I have 6 controller to choose from no thanks give me TMCC or Legacy at least I can stop all my command control engines with the push of one button. and I just don't want more than one controller to run the trains I'm running. if I'm running an engine thru a command environment of some type I want to be able to run them all with one controller now as a starter type set for a kid this could be a excellent item but once you go beyond 1 or 2 engines your in need of another system. 

But then there's the old saying to each there own. enjoy what you have/can afford and go from there. I haven't converted over to Legacy yet but will in time but for now my tmcc does all I want/need I do believe legacy is here for a while and the better control system at this time ( talking lionel( I don't know anything about DCS) 

[nblum]

"I have to remember which controller runs which engine or at least have them marked so I know"

Not if my Great Northern Mikado is typical. They're already marked. The remote has the road name and road number of the locomotive displayed in large white letters smack dab in the middle of the remote.  Obviously if you are operating two locomotives, those are the two locos whose remotes should be in your hands :).  I don't think these are designed for folks who are going to own dozens of locomotives, but rather for those with a handful or so (pun intended).