Converting 9500 Passenger cars with “Dummy” Couplers to “Operating” Couplers

[kiana]

I set this project aside for many months and after reviewing Rob's comments and careful examination I fully agree with Rob. I noted, for example, that the simulated battery boxes on the cars with 6 wheel trucks were re-positioned or modified to accommodate the added length the 6 wheel trucks require.

Thank you Rob.

[David Barker]

Please keep us posted on your progress.

[BigAl 956]

It sounds like you are up to creating quite a project for yourself with these truck retrofits. to repeat what you will find out the hard way is you will need to do extensive modification of the car to retrofit them with 6-wheel trucks. If you use the polar express trucks you will be much better off.

I tried to run my 8500 series Milwaukee cars when i had them. It was on O31 track and the couplers sagged and frequently uncoupled or they were too tight and the cars derailed. Besides being visually ugly and unrealistic the lights inside the cars are next to impossible to replace without damaging the roof.

Eventually i solved all my problems by getting rid of these cars and buying a RailKing Hiawatha set from MTH.

[steinmike]

Somehow I ended up with 23 of the "Baby" Madison cars including the PRR and Milwaukee cars with the 4 wheel trucks and body-mounted couplers, and Blue Comet and New York Central cars with the later six wheel trucks and truck-mounted couplers.

Although some folks don't like the body-mounted couplers, they have never given me any problems.  I use 042 curves for the most part and my track is level.  The fact that the couplers don't operate hasn't been a problem since I mostly keep my passenger consists together and swap out motive power.  In fact, the PRR cars actually are a bit more graceful on curves than the cars with the truck-mounted coupler, so unless you plan to breaking up your consists a lot, not sure that the conversion is worth it.

And Robis correct - you cannot retrofit the six-wheel trucks to the earlier cars.  The mounting hole in the car body for the truck pins is further towards the middle of the car for the six-wheel trucks.

By the way, the plastic spring for the roller in the six-wheel trucks is weak and the roller tends to lose contact with the center rail making the lights flicker.  Lionel has a metal spring, part 610-6655-346 ("Spring, Compression / Collector" to correct the problem.  I've retrofitted the Blue Comet and New York Central "baby" Madisons with the metal spring and it works fine. 

Mike

[kiana]

One other comment. The 6 wheel trucks on my 6-19048 are black annodized. Not shiny like the 600-9536-050 which are listed on the Lionel web site but shown as "unavailable". The photo of 600-9536-050 trucks appear to include the ground return to the axle (i.e., not like the 600-9536-080 which does not include the ground return).

[kiana]

One possible correction to my above post...... A detail look at the above photo seems to reveal it only has the roller (for the center rail) and no electrical means of contact with the axle for the return/connection to the outside rail (return/ground).

The truck on the 6-19048 that I have includes not only a roller pickup for the center rail but also a pickup associated with the axle for a return to the outside rail.

After closely examining the truck assembly on the 6-19048 that I have, it appears the pickup associated with the axle is a part of the roller assembly. Specifically, one notes in the photo above in my last post that just above the roller and slightly to the left is a hole. In my 6-19048 there is a rivet that holds the grounding contact that connects with the axle.

Any suggestions for a part number that includes the ground return? Do you concur with my above assessment that the part number above does not include a ground return? 

[ADCX Rob]

kiana

1. Without making any changes to either car I verified the 600-9536-080 all metal truck is fully compatible with the 9500 cars. (For example – the hole in the body mold for mounting trucks is identical.)

I welcome your comments. 

The 600-9536-080 all metal truck is NOT fully compatible with the 9500 cars. It will only work on those cars made in 1978 or later, as the tool was changed to allow clearance for the 6 wheel trucks. It's not really obvious unless you have 1 of each side-by-side to compare.

[kiana]

Based on your input and suggestions I have conducted further research and am considering the following. Your input is appreciated.

1. I am somewhat familiar with the B&O passenger cars in service with this Blue and Gray B&O paint scheme. (My father was a conductor on the B&O “Diplomat” between Cincinnati and St. Louis.)
2. My recollection of the B&O passenger cars in use on the “Diplomat” utilized 6 wheeled trucks. Although the cars were not necessarily Madison.
3. A web check of the B&O prototype cars (photos) reveals 6 wheel trucks were used.
4. I also have other B&O “Baby Madison” passenger cars (e.g., Lionel 6-19048 with Green and Gold strip paint scheme).  These cars use Lionel 600-9536-080 6 wheel all metal truck with coupler, integral collector, and ground return.
5. Without making any changes to either car I verified the 600-9536-080 all metal truck is fully compatible with the 9500 cars. (For example – the hole in the body mold for mounting trucks is identical.)
6. The transition will require de-soldering and re-soldering wiring associated with illumination on the 9500 series cars.
7. A photo of the Lionel 600-9536-080 truck (copied from the Lionel web site) follows:
    

I welcome your comments.  

[ADCX Rob]

In addition, both types of trucks are anachronistic for the era this style of car was in use, although the roller bearing truck not quite so bad(retro-fit) as the original wood beam style trucks from the 1973 production. 

[BigAl 956]

Correct. Those inferior trucks and couplers were discontinued many years ago and are no longer available. The Polar Express trucks are the closest truck that will work on this type of passenger cars.

[kiana]

Thanks for your quick reply and solution.

I understand these trucks are used on the more recent/current Polar Express products.

For my own knowledge and learning, I have the following questions/request for comment:

1. I am guessing these trucks (620-5100-050) are recommend because they are a more recent product, more trouble free/durable, and perhaps Lionel has addressed some of the design/quality issues with previous versions (i.e., the 9500-50). Correct???
2. Thanks for posting the photo. From examining the photo it appears the 620-5100-050 molding is based on current modern “roller” bearing trucks (versus “solid” bearing trucks as in the molding for the 9500-54 and 9500-50). Correct???

Your input will enable me to convert/modify these cars to provide operating couplers.

[BigAl 956]

Yep Rob is correct. You need to replace the old trucks and couplers with the replacements shown. I personally wouldn't worry about restoring these cars back to their original state. The early 9500 baby Madison cars are typical of the really poor quality of the MPC era. Only the most die-hard of die hard collectors would want these cars restored to the original awful dummy couplers.

[ADCX Rob]

This is all you need(2 per car):

Plus rivets.  If this is temporary, use appropriately sized bolts and nuts. 

The wipers and collectors that are already wired to your cars will snap out of the old trucks and into the new trucks with no cutting, soldering, or changes.  You will have to take the axle sets out of the trucks to facilitate this(the trucks are designed to allow this).

[kiana]

I have several 9500 series B&O illuminated Passenger Cars (i.e., 6-9516, 6-9517, 6-9518, 6-9519, 6-9523, 6-9524, 6-9525, 6-9529).

All of these cars have “dummy” couplers. I consider myself an operator and widh to convert/replace these couplers/trucks with “operating” couplers/trucks. When I implement such modifications I always plan the modification such that it can be reversed to restore the item to the original state (e.g., never drilling new holes or making modifications that permanently modify the item).

 The summary goal is to find compatible operating/coupler trucks and install these for my own use if only temporarily.

I am seeking input/options/suggestions from other operators who have considered and implemented the change I am proposing.

1. With respect to couplers/trucks, the above B&O Passenger Cars come with the following:
   1. 2 each 9500-18 couplers – non operating (i.e., dummy couplers)
   2. 2 each 9500-54 (Plain Truck Assembly).
   3. 2 each 9700-20 (Plastic Truck Rivet) used to attach each truck assembly to the car.
   4. 1 each 9513-150 (Pickup/roller Assembly) added to one of the Truck assemblies to provide power for lighting/illumination.
   5. One each 9150-175 (Axel Contact Assembly – “grounding”) added to the other truck assembly to complete the power circuit – ground - for illumination.
   6. Reference for the above part numbers is page 12-2 of Supplement 1-9 of “Lionel Parts List and Exploded Diagrams 1970-1986” found on the Lionel website site.
2. The following possible options for “operating” couplers were found by researching Supplement 1-9 of “Lionel Parts List and Exploded Diagrams 1970-1986”. Specifically page 12-6 with added details on page 15-103:
   1. 2 each 9500-50 Operating Coupler Truck (4 metal wheels) – replacement for 1a and 1b above.
   2. 2 each 556-16 (rivet for trucks) or the listed alternate – 2 each 9700-20 (note this is the same as the original noted in 1c above).
   3. 1 each 9513-150 (pickup assembly) (note this is the same as the original -1d above).
   4. 1 each 9150-175 (axel contact assembly) (note this is the same as the original - 1e above).

The Operating Couplers in 2 above are “thumb tack” couplers. Operator’s comments on some online forums seem to report negative experiences. It is not clear if these are a reflection on the product, operating conditions, maintenance, or a combination of all.

The postwar operating couplers (e.g., 490-1 and 492-1) do not appear compatible without significant permanent modifications to the body of the car. Hence, this does not appear to be an option.

In summary, I am seeking suggestions and experience from operators who may considered and implemented such a conversion.  Thanks.