TMCC or MTH DCS

[nblum]

The simplest approach to command control is TMCC only :).

But if you are planning to have both systems available, wire your layout for DCS and get it to work first, as suggested. TMCC is very tolerant of different wiring and track geometry compared with DCS on some layouts.


TMCC does have some gotchas to watch out for including metal wire mesh scenery, track running right above another track, and making sure the command base power pack is plugged into a truly grounded outlet. I'll let others discuss the tricks of the trade with DCS :).

[Anonymous]

Chief,

I agree with you about the wiring. The only time I have ad to resort to special wiring is on a very large loop (beginning at 60-80 feet in diameter), then I break the loop into blocks with insulating pins and use a "Star" wiring topology. I added DCS to the Super O layout my dad built for me in 1960 and get all 10's too. The switches are wire to operate from their original controllers and also from the AIU.

From a simplicity standpoint, it is much better to start with DCS, then add TMCC.

[nblum]

If the loops are close together, even if not interconnected, you may be able to just hook up the command base's single wire to one loop. Probably best if the loops are widely separated or quite large to run one wire from the command base to each loop, or a wire from a command base connected loop's outside rail to the next loop and then to the next loop (daisy chain style).

[Anonymous]

Ok this might be a supid question but if I have 2 or 3 loops in my layout and was hooking up TMCC, do I need to run a wire to each outside rail of each loop or just one?

[ChiefEagles]

Yes Neil, you are right. I fixed it. Added some more jumpers. Especially between switches. Now they all run smooth.

[nblum]

Chief, it sounds like you may some voltage drop over some areas of your layout. The signal strength indication only measures the strength of the digital DCS signal, not the amount of power to the track. Command locos will work better in an environment where there are voltage variations than will conventional locos, as long as there is at least some minimal level of power available. Command locos with speed control always keep some additional power capabilties in reserve. That is, command locos with speed control don't use the full voltage available as do conventional locos.

[ChiefEagles]

Real strange. I have not had a problem with DCS signal and wiring. I'm using old Lionel and K-Line tublor track and wired on with telephone wire. I have three loops on the floor. Track signal is 10 all over. This is a temp. layout until I can get the other room ready to build an around the room layout. In fact, I was getting a 10 signal all over and then conventional trains were slowing on parts of the track. Seems that MTH and DCS PS2 engines are better to operate than conventional engines. I'm adding TMCC to my big layout as I love Lionel trains too. I did find that it is cheaper and easier to do DCS first and then add TMCC.

[AlanRail]

Wiring your layout may or may not be an issue with MTH's DCS; Wiring is rarely and almost never an issue with TMCC.

The reason is that the control signal in MTH DCS is run through the track; the signal must reach each part of the layout from the signal source (TIU) at about the same time ( we are talking miliseconds) Thus to do this you employ spoke-type wiring in which both positive and negative are wired to each 6'- 10 ' section of track.

TMCC signal is travels thru the air (R/F) so the wiring of the layout is of no import;

Personally, I hope Lionel doesn't sucumb to making a display CAB2; then their handheld would be as less simple to use unike MTH's.

Alan

[nblum]

You might want to also know whether the MTH engine has Locosounds rather than PS1, since that was another system MTH used.

In any case, if you use the cab-1/command base along with a new version ZW, TPC300 or TPC400 (rather than a Powermaster) you will be able to use your MTH engine's whistle through the remote and also control new TMCC locos in command mode. If you are planning to purchase MTH PS2 locos, you could go the other way, and use a Z4000/Remote Commander or DCS setup to control your MTH and conven tional locos.

If you do not plan on getting command control (PS2 or TMCC) locos, the cheapest way to add a remote capability that will work both MTH PS1 or traditional Lionel locos in conventional mode is to buy a TPC300 and cab-1/command base setup. Should run about $200 or so. Alternatively, get a new ZW and cab-1 for $400. The Z4000 plus remote commander gives you a power supply as well, just like the new ZW, but will also run about $400.

[Anonymous]

Nblurn, Thanks for the info. I have done that exact thing, but was just wondering if there was another way so that the shed with the TMCC Lockon could be used. I was thinking of cutting some of the ties out of a section of track to allow access to the center rail for the Lockon.

Well, I took a couple of the Atlas O 21st Century 1 3/4" track sections and I cut two ties out of the center. It worked like a charm. The TMCC Lockon fits perfect.

[nblum]

With TMCC you just need to run one wire from the command base to one outside rail of track. On large or complex layouts, sometimes it's helpful to run a wire to the other outside rail as well.

The only other wires are for power. Unless you want to have electrical blocks on your layout for conventional operation or isolating some trackage, with TMCC, you do not need to divide your layout into blocks. Two wires from the power suppy to the outside and middle rail are all you need. The command connection (single wire to the outside rail) and the power connection (one wire to middle and one to the outside rail) are completely independent and non-critical as to where they are. If you want to or need more power than one power supply provides, just connect each power supply independently to the loop or section of isolated trackage you want to control. No need for additional command connections or other electronic fussing :).

[Anonymous]

With TMCC do you need to run the wire to every block on your layout or just one block?

[nblum]

Just run wiring from the TMCC Lock On connections to whatever method you want to use to connect to the other track. That is, wire from Lockon (TMCC) to Lockon (Atlas or Gargraves). You can put the TMCC Lockon under the table if you like.

[Anonymous]

Anyone know how you are suppose to connect the LIONEL TMCC LOCK ON to Atlas O Century 21 or Gargraves track with extra ties? It has a Lock on that is made for LIONEL track, other than Fast Track, or anytrack with out extra ties. Any ideas??

[Anonymous]

Pirata,

Lionel opted to use small, clear plastic templates that fit over the keys of the Cab-1 (a template is included with each locomotive) which serve, to a large extent the function of the LCD screen on the DCS Handheld. I think it has to do with the time when the Cab-1 was designed, cost issues at the time, etc. Technology has changed a lot since then. I prefer the LCD screen, as I have a tendency to loose the templates occasionally.

Some people are waiting to see if Lionel will, at some point, create and sell a "Cab-2", with upgrades such as an LCD screen, etc. Many like it the way it is, and would prefer to see no changes. Lionel will have to decide what the market really wants/needs.

Personally, I would like MTH to modify the software in the DCS Handheld to allow use of all TMCC features (programming, lash-ups, etc.). That would end the few remaining compatibility issues (with regard to locomotive operation-not accessory operation). As it is, I almost never use the Cab-1 (except for testing and programming) to run TMCC locomotives as I am so used to, and comfortable with, the DCS Handheld.

[Anonymous]

I wonder why they didn't put an LCD screen on the Cab-1.

[Anonymous]

I agree with the observations of Spankybird and the conclusions of alt117,

Both is the best answer. Both systems work well and both systems work well together. You can use the DCS Handheld to run both the TMCC and PS-2 locomotives in Command Mode, as well as conventional locomotives (from the variable channels). For those who prefer the Cab-1, that can still be used at the same time for TMCC locomotives (it will be required for TMCC lash-up and TMCC programming).
As pointed out above, TMCC is an inexpensive add-on to DCS. Purchase DCS, add another $100.00 or so for TMCC, plus $20.00 or so for the special cable for connecting the TMCC Command Base to the TIU and you can run anything.

Again, as mentioned above-this is not an either or question. You can run and enjoy both (at the same time, on the same track).

There is a great variety of really great PS-2 and TMCC locomotives out there, just waiting for you. Why would you want to limit yourself?

[Big_Boy_4005]

Well Pirata, you don't waste time going right to the hot issues. For a newbie to ask this one is almost suspicous. You have really been doing your homework. I don't really have much to add to what has been said. With a 4 x 8 layout, I think it's safe to say that you have some time to choose. Keep in mind that DCS is only standard on MTH trains TMCC is available from all of the other major manufacturers except Williams, who use none.

I have to agree with Walt, this topic has been responded to in a most refershing way. Well done guys, lots of fact with little opinion. [^][tup]

[waltrapp]

It's SOOOOOO refreshing to read some honest comments without passing negative judgements on one or the other system.

I compliment the contributors so far! Thank you for making this an interesting thread to keep track of.

I only have DCS, no TMCC engines, and I only have a Christmas layout (14'x14' though - 7 trains at once), and I like DCS. The only part that I haven't mastered yet is wading thru the menus quickly when I want to quickly select some option. Maybe if I used the remote more I'd be better at it.

Of course I can't tell if it's DCS itself that I like more or merely the freedom to roam around and still be in control of the layout.

Sorry that I can't compare to TMCC.

- walt

[Anonymous]

This really isn't an either/or. If you want to run TMCC engines in command (Lionel, Atlas, K-Line, 3rd rail, Weaver) then you need the TMCC command base and CAB 1 remote, about $100.

If you want to run MTH PS2 engines in command mode, you need the DCS system, about $250.

If you want to run both, you need both.

Both can run conventional non command engines from the remote, DCS out of the box, TMCC needs an add on, about $100.

Both systems have add ons to control your turnouts and other accessories.

You can upgrade your older engines to basic TMCC for $60-$80, more if you want speed control or sound. Its not too complicated. You can upgrade an engine to PS2, including sound and speed control, for about $250. It's a little more complicated.

[Anonymous]

Hold on there Allan, you are assuming MTH is going to own lionel. They will have to own wellspring to do that. Lets let the verdict and all the finalities take place before we assume something. dave

[AlanRail]

I dont know which one is "better."
I have both and run my Lionel engines with DCS;

Observation:

CAB-1 is an overall easier handheld control to use ( and to wire) because it has fewer buttons and speed dial is big! With Cab-1 you really dont need to look at the handheld control, except to select an engine; this means that your eyes tend to stay on the trains... a good thing!

The DCS handheld has more and smaller buttons; the speed control is a thumb wheel not a big dial; a lot of the functions, and there are a lot of functions far more than TMCC, BUT you MUST look at the handheld as you scroll thru the functions and engines to select by pressing-in with the thumb wheel. So with the MTH system I think you tend to look at the handheld instead of the trains.... not necessarily a good thing.

The DCS handheld has an LED display to select trains that are in the system whereas with Lionel 's CAB-1 you must remember the train's two-digit number; usually assigned as the last two digits in the engine's number.

Can't beat the ease of wiring with TMCC, since the signal is passed thru the air; any layout wiring will work; not so with MTH DCS where the control signal is passed thru the track, so for best results you need to wire sections of track with both + and - hitting each section at the same time... a bit tricky.

Alan

May be after the dust settles and MTH owns rights to TMCC and then can change its signal to go thru the air...

[nblum]

For operating TMCC locos, TMCC is better. For operating PS2 locos, DCS is better. For operating conventional locos, TMCC is better in some ways, unless they are MTH PS1 or PS2 and then DCS is better in some ways. If you want to operate both PS2 and TMCC locos, you need both systems as the DCS system operates TMCC by emulating TMCC signals through the DCS TIU to talk to the TMCC command base.

If you're looking for the highest quality sound, reliability and simplicity, TMCC is superior. If you're looking for the greatest variety of sounds, greatest variety of features then DCS is superior.

If you're looking for initial low cost (about $100) and modularity, TMCC is superior. If you're looking to buy one box to control command and conventional locos and don't mind spending $250-275 to start, DCS is superior.

Hope this helps.

[spankybird]

If your just starting out, and are planning on having both MTH PS2 engines and Lionel or others with TMCC, then maybe overall DCS is a better choose.


DCS with Lionel command base can run all command control engines, MTH or Lionel or any conventional engine.

TMCC can not run MTH engines in command mode, only conventional mode.

Also MTH engines with PS2 can be bought new for around $200.00.

DCS can be bought for around $250.00. With DCS you will not need to add a surge suppressor as the TIU as one built in it.

[Anonymous]

You need to buy the MTH equiptment and connect it to your Lionel electronics and then use the MTH hand held to run both.
MTH is the only one that has DCS. 3rd rail, Atlas, Weaver, Lionel, and K line are all Lionel Command and that is why I stay with my lionel system. No mater what I get , as long as it is not MTH I can run it with my cab one.
Just my opinion, but way less electronics and less to get messed up.
dave

[Anonymous]

Which one is better

TMCC or MTH DCS?

Also can MTH DCS work with LIONEL Trains? or do you have to buy a MTH Locomotor?

Thanks