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sparking at frog rail rivets on Lionel No. 1121 and 1122 (E) switches

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sparking at frog rail rivets on Lionel No. 1121 and 1122 (E) switches
Posted by San Jose on Monday, November 11, 2013 3:24 PM

Greetings to all you model train experts!

I have been experiencing sparking around the rim of the rivets that secure the frog rail (part No. 1024-9 or 1024-10) on the No. 1121 and also the No. 1122 (E) switches.  I took the bottom plate off an 1122 (big job!!) as well as off an 1121 (not so big a job).  Although I expected to see evidence of a short (burn mark??) either on the insulating paper or on the underside of the top or bottom of the switch, I saw nothing of the kind.

Also, I have measured the resistance between that rivet and other parts of the switch.  Should there be continuity between the rivet and the frog rail/  What other resistance, if any, might be helpful in diagnosing the source of the sparking.

Thanks, Nino Yannoni from San Jose

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Posted by Buckeye Riveter on Monday, November 11, 2013 5:18 PM

I had a similar problem with another brand of switch.  I had to increase the thickness of the insulation. Maybe the paper could be replaced by a thin sheet of plastic.  Good luck. Sorry I could not be of more help.  

Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum. Smile, Wink & Grin

Buckeye Riveter......... OTTS Charter Member, a Roseyville Raider and a member of the CTT Forum since 2004..

Jelloway Creek, OH - ELV 1,100 - Home of the Baltimore, Ohio & Wabash RR

TCA 09-64284

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Posted by TrainLarry on Monday, November 11, 2013 6:08 PM

There should be continuity between the rivet, frog rail, and the center rails of the switch. If the rivet sparks on the frog rail, chances are there is some resistance (dirt) under the head of the rivet. The sparking is evidence of resistance in the connection (dirt), or the rivet itself may be a bit loose. Get a cotton swab and some naptha (available at hardware stores) and soak the rivet head area, cleaning any dirt that comes out. Make sure the power is off when you do this! Allow to dry and check again. Repeat if necessary. If you still have a problem, spray a contact cleaner such as DeoxIT under the rivet head.

Larry

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Posted by servoguy on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 12:03 PM

The frog is connected to the outer rails, not the center rail.  The wheels of the loco and cars touch the frog so obviously, the frog can't be connected to the center rail.  

The rivet that is in the center of the fat rail is connected to the center rail, and sometimes the connection between the rivet and the fat rail becomes poor due to corrosion.  I recommend you solder the rivet to the fat rail.  Here is the link to my post on restoring 1122 switches:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=5513

If you do everything I suggest in the post, your switches should work perfectly.

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Posted by lionelsoni on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 6:07 PM

Lionel called the fat center rail the "frog rail" in the service manuals, for no good reason, since it has nothing to do with the frog.  That is where he undoubtedly got that terminology.  (They called the actual frog the "frog point".)  There is no prototype railroad name for that thing, since almost all prototype railroads have lacked center rails.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by San Jose on Wednesday, November 20, 2013 6:38 PM
Thank you for your comments and suggestions..........I thought I had sent this shortly after I got your note but here goes anyway.  
 
I think that you and TrainLarry and I are in agreement about what is connected to what and I will seriously consider your interesting thought about soldering the frog rail rivet to the frog rail.  I might first try TrainLarry's suggestion to clean out around the rivet since that is a less permanent fix than soldering the frog rail rivet to the frog rail even though I'm not sure it won't get dirty again and result in resistance buildup.
 
Am I on the right track ^_^ ??
  • Member since
    May 2010
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Posted by San Jose on Wednesday, November 20, 2013 6:40 PM

This is what I sent to ServoGuy who replied after your helpful note.  Thanks, Nino

Thank you for your comments and suggestions..........I thought I had sent this shortly after I got your note but here goes anyway.  
 
I think that you and TrainLarry and I are in agreement about what is connected to what and I will seriously consider your interesting thought about soldering the frog rail rivet to the frog rail.  I might first try TrainLarry's suggestion to clean out around the rivet since that is a less permanent fix than soldering the frog rail rivet to the frog rail even though I'm not sure it won't get dirty again and result in resistance buildup.
 
Am I on the right track ^_^ ??

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