I've always wondered, besides the 700E Hudson (which I probably will never have the means to own), are there any Lionel trains made up until the introduction of Standard O that will not negotiate an 027 curve
None that I have come across.
Modern versions are a different story. Many require 054 and 072. I tried running my SP 4436 on 036 and it would not negotiate those turns even thought the center drivers have no flange.
yea someday I'll have a layout that has 072 curves, I've just been wondering looking at the two CTT specials this year and last, if all of the post war stuff would make it around those sharp curves.
I've read that the fuel tanks earlier F3 diesels might hit the switch machines on 027 switches. But Lionel made a few "027" F3's, so either the problem did not really exist, or they made some modifications to allow for clearance.
In the Prewar period, I think the Hiawatha and the UP streamliners required 072. Probably the scale switcher too (but I am uncertain)
On the later F3s, Lionel replaced the original horizontal-motor design with vertical motors and moved the truck center bearings closer together. This reduced the overhang at the middle of the carbody, improving the clearance to the O27 switch machines.
Bob Nelson
I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you asking are there any O engines that do not navigate O27?
Yes any O gauge Lionel made up until the introduction of standard O (most of which won't do 027 curves and are labeled as such). This has all been very helpful. My layout actually don't have switches, but there are alot of close clearances, (most of which can be altered because they're from buildings or accessories), when the layout was originally built, I did remove one side of a girder bridge so an 027 RS3 could clear it (which is fine because it's at the back).
726 & 736 steamers will not go through 1122 switches. I don't know about the 1121 switches. They probably will go through Marx metal switches as they will run on O-27 track OK. Marx locos with "fat wheels" also will go through the Marx metal switches, but will not go through 1122 or 1121 switches.
I'm not sure what you mean by, "Lionel made up to the introduction of standard O". I thought O came first and O27 was introduced afterwards as a low cost alternative. The only trains around before O were Standard gage and that has no compatibility with O.
I had the same reaction, Al. But it seems that Lionel has introduced another variant of O-gauge trains when we weren't looking, which they are calling by the confusing name "Standard O". It is not at all the same as the O (or O31 or O30), nor the standard-gauge that we know. The models are made to full 1/48 O-scale size, although still running on the same 1.25-inch-gauge track: http://www.lionel.com/Products/Catalogs/Catalog.cfm?CatalogUID=8D225DE4-B0D0-205D-B7B009D5589290AA&PageID=1630
Yes that's what I meant
I'm still confused.
Lionel made Standard gage up to WWII. Around 1915 O was introduced. http://www.lionel.com/CentralStation/LionelPastAndPresent/
There was a short lived scale called OO introduced around 1938. OO was about the same scale as HO and was dropped with the start of WWII.
O27 was introduced around 1938 as a lower priced alternative to O. To avoid confusion O track is often referred to as Standard O or O31.
Lionel cataloged O and O27 sets for many years. O27 track is a tighter turning radius than Standard O. That's why some O locomotives and cars are not recommended for O27. In general I recommend against using O27 track due to it's flimsier construction and tighter turning radius.
The problem is that Lionel has overloaded the term "Standard O" now to mean a new category of models, different from O31, different from O27, and different from "Standard" gauge.
by Standard O, I meant Lionel's line of scale 1:48 trains that were introduced I think sometime in the 70s/80s?
and by and large, with the exception of switchers, small motorized vehicles, etc, they will not go around 027 curves
OK, I think I understand. There is a difference between gauge and scale. O is a gage of 1 1/4" between outside rails. Anything referred to as O runs on tracks with this spacing.
Scale is another matter. The scale for O is roughly 1:48 or 1:43 depending on the builder. Until the modern era there were very few true scale locomotives or rolling stock built. The problem was sheer size. A full O scale locomotive and car would be too large to navigate typical O31 track. A typical circle of O track made a 31 or 27" diameter circle depending on the track type. Hence the designation O27 or O31. Lionel usually took liberties to strategically reduce the size of a locomotive or car to look proportional but run on O31 or O27 track.
Lionel made very few items of true scale dimensions during the prewar or postwar era. The scale 773 Hudson, is an example of a scale offering. So large was this locomotive Lionel had to make O72 curves and switches for a while to accommodate it. Everything else Lionel made to true scale or close to true scale was 'fudged' to fit on the Standard O O31 track curve. Today the term standard O is used to describe traditional O track as not to confuse with the smaller tighter O27.
As the hobby matured into the modern era there was more of a demand for true scale items for the more serious hobiest. Today you will often see the word 'scale' in the product description followed by a minimum curve size. That is typically O54 or O72. There are a lot more scale offerings today but I'm guessing scale O represents less than 25% of the hobby. Most of us do not have space to set up an O72 layout.
I personally run O31 and O54 loops on my layout. When you see something sold as traditional O they are referring to the downsized Lionel postwar dimensions that allow for O31 curves.
Which takes me back to what is your question again? Are there any Lionel that will not run on O27. The answer for modern era, (1970-present), Lionel is yes. Too many to list here.
Al, I have to take issue with your statement that "O is a gage of 1 1/4" between outside rails." I'm afraid its messier than that. That is indeed the gauge that we American toy-train guys use; but there are others that have been and are used, here and elsewhere:
1 1/4 inches (31.75 millimeters)--American toy trains, corresponds to 5 prototype feet in 1/48 scale
32 millimeters--Virtually the same gauge, but used with a (nominal) scale of 1/45 in Europe, corresponds to 1440 prototype millimeters
33 millimeters--The O that HO is half of, corresponds to 1435.5 prototype millimeters in 1/43.5 scale, or about 1436.9 prototype millimeters in the British scale of 7 millimeters per foot
1 3/16 inches--"Q" gauge--4 feet 9 inches in 1/48 scale, now rare
1.177--"Proto48"--Nearly exact for 1/48 scale
You forgot Standard GAUGE...
Yes, Standard gage made up until WWII. Not to be confused with Standard O. :)
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