I have been lucky enough to come across another AF prewar engine. This one originally had a ringing bell installed and has 'WO 5091' stamped inside of the cab. Also the tender appears to have been altered to use a link coupler. Are there any currently published reference materials that will help in identification of these O scale pieces? The engine still runs like a top!
Dave
A very good starting point would be Northwoods Flyer's thread on pre-war Flyer which is currently over on page 3 of this forum. The only published sources are the out-of-print Greenberg references on pre-war Flyer. They show up on e-bay from time to time.
In the 1930's you will find many items that you won't find in any catalog. Flyer made many sets just to satisfy the consumer because of the depression. The Greenberg book is great but also couldn't cover everything made then.
Your picture closely resembles Type X (1932-33, 1934, 1938-39) catalog # 420 or 422.
Also #3308 (1932-33) because it has a decal in the recessed area of the front boiler.
mersenne6 hit the nail on the head about Northwoods thread. It's great.
I have one that's close to yours. I tried a few months ago at York to get pilot and trailing trucks for mine but without luck. The hunt continues.
Ray
Bayville, NJ
Life is what happens to youWhile you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
Since you have had few replies, I decided to take a crack at it with my copy of Doyle's "Standard Catalog of American Flyer Trains". The volume does have a section on pre-war O-scale, but I'm not able to find your engine in it. In fact there is no listing for a model 5091 O-scale Flyer steam locomotive at all.
It looks like you might have a "Frankensteamer", that is to say an engine that has been heavily modified from it's original form. Certainly from the various photos of the pre-war engines in the catalog, the drivers on your engine are too small and spaced too far apart to have been original to the locomotive. The shell of your engine most closely resembles a 420-series locomotive from 1939-40. There was a model 422, which was a 2-4-2. And also a model 424 locomotive which was a 2-4-4, but which could have been made into a 2-4-2 by the simple expedient of replacing the trailing truck.
Also, the pictures of the 1939-40 model steam locomotives show them with Vanderbilt style tenders. The tender that you have most closely resembles the tenders used on Wide-scale locomotives.
I have figured out what is wrong with my brain! On the left side nothing works right, and on the right side there is nothing left!
Hi Stebby - I might disagree with you on this. The number 5091 is also inside the cab on my Loco posted above. Not sure what it stands for but it's not a model number.
Also I do see his Loco in my catalogs from 1932-34 as Loco # 3309 and it matches my Greenberg book. The drivers and side rods look correct from the pics in the book and the catalog's.
As for the tender, it appears to be a Type IV from 1930-40. These trucks are Type VII made from 1930-32. Making the Tender from 1930-32. It also matches the catalog and book.
The 5091 number is the casting number and should appear inside of all of the castings. Often they have R and L for left and right and may also state "W.O." for Work Order.
The tender appears to be from 1930-1932 because of the brass plates, but has been modified to have the 1939-1940 coupler.
Not sure of the actual number but like 3308 or similar.
Thanks for all of the great replies! I am glad to have some numbers that can be used to refer to it. I will document the possibilities in the database I maintain for my trains. It is a terrific runner and I will proudly display it on my shelves.
dogwood,
You have gotten some excellent information on your engine and tender from the folks who have already posted. They look like they are in great condition. Nice find.
The only information that I would add comes from The Greenberg Guide by Schuweiler - which I find to be the best source of information up to this time.
Your engine is a Type X locomotive. If the ringing bell mechanism that you show in your post was originally in the engine, then it is a 3308 from 1932-1933. That engine had a bell in it both of those years. The text in the catalogs from both years highlight that the engine had a ringing bell and a reversing mechanism (which was a manual reverse with a switch in the cab).
The tender would have had 4 wheels rather than the one that has been paired with the engine now.
In 1932 the engine headed a freight consist with a sand car and a caboose in Set 1341 - Ranger. It also headed a passenger set with 3 - 4 wheel orange passenger cars (3140, 3141, and 3142) in Set 1342 - Texan.
In 1933 the engine and tender were offered in the same freight set. The set has changed number to 1341RT and it is renamed New Ranger. The engine and tender now head a passenger consist with 3 - 8 wheel green passenger cars (3150, 3161, and 3162) in Set 1343RT Highlander.
Have fun with your find.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
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(I WRITE IN CAPS DUE O EYE ISSUES)
TO ADD MY TWO CENTS. WHAT I KNOW. IT IS A 420 PRE WAR STYLE BODY, IT HAS THE BRASS TRIM OF 38. IT CAN'T BE 39 BECAUSE THEY SWITCHED TO NICKLE.THEN DISAPPEARED.SO IT WOULD PLACE IT EARLY 38 OR BEFORE. I HAVE ONE IN MY HANDS THAT HAS A WHITE STRIPE RUNNING THE LENGTH OF THE BOILER SO WE KNOW UNDER THE W.O.3091 THERE WERE VARIENTS. AS MENTIONED GREENBERG DOES NOT EVEN MENTION IT. MINE DOES NOT HAVE A BELL JUST A REVERSE. IT IS MENTIONED THE 42O IS A CHILD OF THE 3307-8. THE 3307-8 IS A COUSIN OF THE BELL RINGERS. THE ISSUE IS THE BELL RINGER HAD A TOTALLY DIFFERENT MOTOR DRIVE TO RING THE BELL.
MY THEORY KNOWING GILBERT, KNOWING THAT THEY PURCHASE A.F. AT THIS GREY AREA, ALSO KNOWING SALES WERE BAD IN THE DEPRESSION THAT EXPERIMENTS WERE GOING ON. I BELIEVE ALSO A.F WAS SCRAMBLING FOR CASH AND GILBERT DID NOT THROW ANYTHING OUT. I BELIEVE THAT YOUR MODEL IS ONE OF THE EVOLUTIONARY STEPS IN THE MODEL CHANGE TO THE 420 FROM THE 3307. ALL HAPPENING WHEN GILBERT BOUGHT THEM. WE SEE IN 39 4 STYLES OF HIAWATHA FROM WIND UP TO BRUSHES ON BOTH SIDES. I ASSUME GETTING RID OF THE SPARE 400 SERIES MOTORS AND THE SWITCH TO 3/16. ON THE 420 I HAVE SEEN 4 STYLES OF THAT AS WELL IN JUST A 3 YEAR PERIOD. AS MENTIONED NO REAL MAJOR PUBLISHED LITERATURE EXISTS ESP. WITH PICTURES. ALSO AS MENTIONED WHEN THINGS BROKE, KIDS TOOK THE BROKEN PARTS OFF ESPECAILLY THE ZINC WHEELS. I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ACQUIRE REPLACEMENTS FOR THOSE AND HAVE A MAJOR JUNK YARD OF PARTS. MANY OF THE PARTS ARE SIMILIAR IN A GIVEN COUPLE OF YEARS. NICE FIND.
gilbertgreg,
to the forum. This thread is 8 years old and still has some excellent information. A lot has been added to the knowledge base about Flyer since the Greenberg book was published and in the 8 years since this thread appeared.
I have at least 4 variations of the Type X body casting in my collection.
Thanks for adding your insights.
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