***BREAKING NEWS*** MTH MAKES HO LINE***

[Frank in Steam]

Allan, I agree, this or other forums are hardly a diverse cross section of the hobby. It is not a statistically valid sample because it is not randomly selected. This forum does represent the more vocal and demonstratively involved in the traditional 3 rail side of the hobby, with a smattering of multiple scale interests and rivet counters, and a dash of us folks that seem to like everything. But a diverse cross section not by a scientific or my belabored thought process definition, in other words - no way!

By the way, I work with an HO modeler who sold MTH and Lionel in a hobby shop, and is thus very familiar with the O and HO scales. He showed interest saying that it took Mike long enough to find the largest segment of the hobby, criticized the price level, and moaned "another Pensy K4, what are they thinking?" One of his circle the next day e mailed him the press release and was excited because there is another player to make stuff. The rest of his group could not care less until they see the product. The above is probably a better cross section of the HO segment, but a diverse cross section - hardly.

[Anonymous]

I believe that, while MTH competes in nearly all price points in the O gauge 3-rail market, its HO offerings will be restricted to the high end of the price scale. The customer community who buys these high end trains is highly sophisticated and knows what's going on. Furthermore the WIDESPREAD perception that there is something wrong with our civil court system bodes ill for anyone who EVEN APPEARS to have gamed the system to gain a legally correct but morally incorrect advantage. All of Allan Miller's wishful thinking will not change these facts. MTH has to convince the customer base that it has NO INTENTION of interfering with ANY of the DCC standards as they exist today or their HO venture stands a good chance of unprofitability. They are not dealing with a bunch of Joe Sixpacks here.

[nblum]

Word of mouth is quite effective in most hobbies in spreading news. Do something good and 10 people might hear about it. Do something naughty and 1,000 people hear about it :).

[3railguy]

QUOTE: As for 3railguy's comment about compatability: The MTH HO line, as announced, would be fully compatible with all other HO equipment.

Will all the features be accesible with DCC?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Allan Miller

"Allan, I think you are underestimating the diverse cross section of people on this board. In terms of polling demographics I would bet that this forum represents the hobby world quite well."
---------------------------------
I will be delighted to take that bet! [:)]

Allan,

I spent alot of time yesterday coming up with a response using numbers. I've decided to scratch that. Here is one though. 163,780. This was the number of registered members as of approx one pm yesterday. Also at this time there were 20 people who had just signed up. Yes, not all of these people are around anymore. Just remember that lack of posts does not mean lack of presence.

Diverse-Made up of distinct characteristics, qualities, or elements.

From reading and talking to other forum members I know it is true.

Age--How many polls have been taken on here?? We have pre-teen to well into their seventies.

Sex-Well we got both of them covered here.[;)]

Location--Not only is the United States well represented but we have international exposure as well.

Education--There are students all the way up to ??. I would say PhD but I don't know for sure of a member. But I am willing to bet that we have some of those, along with some that have never finished high school.

Ethnicity--This one is a touchy subject. I am not sure how many are present on this board. Although to be a fair representation of the hobby I am not sure how many we need. The main cast of characters in most of the videos I have seen appears to be the "white male between 40 and 60"[;)].

Availability and Ease of Use--Unlike years ago when it was expensive and tougher to navigate--the web is a very user friendly place today. More houses than ever have at least one computer. You can access it at the library or the corner cafe. As far as easy to use, 5 year olds can get around easily. As can the older generations who never touched a computer until after they could qualify for their .25 coffee[;)].

Occupations--There are pizza boys to doctors. Heck we even have a guy at the pentagon(but he is only trying to make us be all we can be[;)]).

Also on this very subject we have all the responses covered. YES, NO , I COULD CARE LESS.

When there are poll takers at the mall that is not totally random, everyone inside chose a reason to come in while everyone outside chose a reason not to. Everyone that came inside has something in common.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 3railguy

QUOTE: As for 3railguy's comment about compatability: The MTH HO line, as announced, would be fully compatible with all other HO equipment.

Will all the features be accesible with DCC?

The simple answer is NO. Andy Edleman rattled off a long list of features that could only be accessed with DCS over on the MR forum.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21838

[Anonymous]

Big Girl, I am a 46 year old undergraduate student. I am typical of those who decided to "come in" to this forum I have been interested in all kinds of trains all of my life and have worked in all scales from N to Standard except TT. I represent the rypical customer which companies like MTH and BLI are targeting. Those of us who are on this forum are the CORE CUSTOMER BASE.of those who produce all but real low end toy/model trains and while I admittedly do not have the figures to back up the following statement, I'm sure that there are a good number of "lurkers" on this forum. Nearly all of the folks who read this board have a group of fellow train enthusiasts in their social circle. as you can see, the impact of this message board is far greater than the number of registered users would have you believe If you study the theory of six degrees of separation, you will see that what is discussed on this board could potentially be common knowledge throughout the toy/model train GLOBAL community VERY quickly, especially if the issue at hand has that elusive quality called "juiciness" Certainly, there have been at least two topics discussed on this forum in recent days that are VERY JUICY. and even those who couldn't care less will have some inkling that something is going on. This forum is a heck of a lot more powerful than you think. and ALL manufacturers who want to sell to the market segment we represent had better take note of what is said here.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by johnblair

Big Girl, I am a 46 year old undergraduate student. I am typical of those who decided to "come in" to this forum I have been interested in all kinds of trains all of my life and have worked in all scales from N to Standard except TT. I represent the rypical customer which companies like MTH and BLI are targeting. Those of us who are on this forum are the CORE CUSTOMER BASE.of those who produce all but real low end toy/model trains and while I admittedly do not have the figures to back up the following statement, I'm sure that there are a good number of "lurkers" on this forum. Nearly all of the folks who read this board have a group of fellow train enthusiasts in their social circle. as you can see, the impact of this message board is far greater than the number of registered users would have you believe If you study the theory of six degrees of separation, you will see that what is discussed on this board could potentially be common knowledge throughout the toy/model train GLOBAL community VERY quickly, especially if the issue at hand has that elusive quality called "juiciness" Certainly, there have been at least two topics discussed on this forum in recent days that are VERY JUICY. and even those who couldn't care less will have some inkling that something is going on. This forum is a heck of a lot more powerful than you think. and ALL manufacturers who want to sell to the market segment we represent had better take note of what is said here.

I'm not the one who dismissed the people on this forum as a few whiners. I agree the manufacturers need to pay attention to what is said here.

QUOTE: Allan Miller Posted: 27 Sep 2004, 04:40:27
----------------------------

Define "HO community." A few whiners who may post on various forums and boards? Or the many thousands of HO enthusiasts who never read any of this on-line stuff and who couldn't care less what brand name is on the box as long as it contains a product they want?

My feeling is if you are defining the HO community (or even the O gauge community) by what you read on line, you are seriously underestimating the size, scope, and diverse interests of these segments of the hobby.

I believe very much that this forum is able to represent the customer base.

QUOTE: QUOTE: Originally posted by Allan Miller

"It seems that the HO community will not tolerate someone coming in and stirring the pot like that. Good!!!"
----------------------------

Define "HO community." A few whiners who may post on various forums and boards? Or the many thousands of HO enthusiasts who never read any of this on-line stuff and who couldn't care less what brand name is on the box as long as it contains a product they want?

My feeling is if you are defining the HO community (or even the O gauge community) by what you read on line, you are seriously underestimating the size, scope, and diverse interests of these segments of the hobby.





Big_Girl_4005 Posted: 27 Sep 2004, 09:10:42


Allan, I think you are underestimating the diverse cross section of people on this board. In terms of polling demographics I would bet that this forum represents the hobby world quite well.

John, I am with you. Allan is the one disagreeing.

[Anonymous]

Allan Miller is highly regarded in the model train community. I would tend to believe what he has to say. A lot of what I'm reading here is hot air!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bill Conner

Allan Miller is highly regarded in the model train community. I would tend to believe what he has to say. A lot of what I'm reading here is hot air!

Just because he is highly regarded does not mean he cannot be wrong.

You cannot discount someone else's opinion because they are a "nobody".

[Anonymous]

Conner, i am not inpressed by you or Miller. All I see are a couple of knee jerk apologists for a position who cannot respect the other fellow's perspective. The fact that Miller is so prominent in this hobby does much to increase my understanding of why adults who "play with trains" have such an image problem.

[nblum]

I would think it's transparently obvious that those who cruise the Net and have the money for a computer are exactly those consumers MOST likely to be interested in new, more expensive, but whizzy high tech products like the MTH PS3 HO locos, or command control in general. We have met the future, and it's us :). The guys and gals who have no interest in model trains made after 1969 Lionel, don't buy current products and don't read these forums are not exactly prime targets for MTH's marketing and innovation.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Personally, I don't respect Allan Miller's opinion on this matter. I get the impression that he is strongly biased in favor of MTH, and lacks objectivity. As much as I like some of MTH's products, there are others that I would not buy. I don't share that "do no wrong attitude".

Truth be told, this matter should be of no concern to the 3 rail community, as it doesn't effect them. The HO community has issues and complaints with MTH. I have never viewed the creation of DCS as a betterment of the hobby. I have always felt that it was developed out of spite for Lionel. Now it appears that there is a new target for Mike to go after, BLI.

Win, lose or draw, there is a perception of UGLINESS here, and it starts with MTH.

If ever there was politics in the model railroading world, this is it. Think about it, two sides so thouroughly opposed to the other position. This is a hobby, but some businesses lose sight of that, thinking only of the money, and not the people.

If only someone could tell Union Pacific too.

[nblum]

"Truth be told, this matter should be of no concern to the 3 rail community, as it doesn't effect them"

Don't know that I'd be so certain that's going to be the case Eliot. MTH, based upon track record, might well wind up litigating against other three rail manufacturers of speed control devices and additional items covered by their patents. Time will tell.

[Anonymous]

How can MTH patent a name such as 1 mph or speed control.
Wouldn't that be the same as one of the major auto makers having made
their speedometer to read in one mph increments, patent it, and not let other company's use it without a lawsuit.
I must be too thick in the head to understand why MTH is trying to scare out the little guy who does not have the money to hire attorneys.
If all the money spent so far on the MTH-Lionel lawsuit would have been put to use to develop the hobby, what would the outcome be.
I know, I live in a idealistic world. dave.

[Anonymous]

Just what has allen miller done to be so highly respected in the train comunity?????? How do we know he knows anymore about trains than the next guy.
I would think that everyone can be respected on an equal basis and get

same respect.

[Anonymous]

Posts: 38
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: US

***THE FOLLOWING IS A CROSS POST OF A POST I MADE ON THE MR FORUM***

If MTH does not try to somehow legally restrain the manufacture of DCC equipment as it is now manufactured, there is no issue, Period. If MTH comes up with better products, they deserve to protect the technology they developed. Furthermore, it doesn't matter whether those products are DCC compatible or not, MTH has the right to market them. (MTH has stated that PS3.0 WILL be DCC Compatible with reduced features) GOOD!!! The ONLY legitimate question is: Will DCC be protected? If so, look for better HO trains.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by roxin2002

Just what has allen miller done to be so highly respected in the train comunity?????? How do we know he knows anymore about trains than the next guy.
I would think that everyone can be respected on an equal basis and get same respect.

Sure, everyone deserves respect. But do a Google search. Allen is a well-respected author who has written often for Kalmbach, has several books out on model railroading, and who wrote a wonderful column on toy trains in "Vintage Rails." He has many inside contacts. In short, he probably does know more about trains than the next guy.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by steve26

QUOTE: Originally posted by roxin2002

Just what has allen miller done to be so highly respected in the train comunity?????? How do we know he knows anymore about trains than the next guy.
I would think that everyone can be respected on an equal basis and get same respect.

Sure, everyone deserves respect. But do a Google search. Allen is a well-respected author who has written often for Kalmbach, has several books out on model railroading, and who wrote a wonderful column on toy trains in "Vintage Rails." He has many inside contacts. In short, he probably does know more about trains than the next guy.

You're exactly right Steve! Allan Miller has more credentials in this hobby than all of these other posters on this thread put together. And so what if he's pro MTH? Although I like Williams a lot, I think MTH is the premier toy train manufacturer in O gauge and will eventually be the same in HO. There's not a more dedicated and innovative person in the hobby than Mike Wolf. HO needs him!

[Anonymous]

I think that Allan Miller needs to learn to respect those who hold different views. I am definetly NOT anti MTH. My only concern is that current users of DCC will be legally able to continue to use that technology and buy additional DCC hardware as they have in the past. If that is the case, MTH will win over the HO community and probably revolutionize HO as they have O gauge 3 rail. Man, I LOVE those subway trains. As for Allan, I would like to speak with him at length because I would learn a lot about trains that I never knew before. But since I have been involved with trains of all types for many years, Allan would surely learn quite a bit as well.

[daan]

Just to make a small point.. Marklin is VERY succesfull in Europe, VHS had a long life here (still is around) and h0 is (with N and LGB) allmost the only scale to buy in Europe..
Emagine that a company like MTH tries to dig a path into an overcrowded h0 scene instead of taking their products to an "unzero-ed continent" and spread their wings.. The last swap meting I visited, one guy had imported some 0-scale K-line himself and he had a small stand. You couldn't even get near to it. People asked and wanted to know where to buy that stuff (apart from his swapmeetshop). I know that Europe is a breed apart compared to America, but if one doesn't sail to expand ones country, MTH, K-line, Lionel and stuff wouldn't even excist because no one would know about America. (Columbus brought potatoes, not toy trains, but times change..)
Anyway, the most obvious expansion of their (and other 0 manufacturers) territory is under their nose and they start h0-ing???
(Obviously I will keep on trying to push wherever I can to get 0 gauge more accessable for us Europeans and for me in particular..)

[highrailjon]

Frankie csx, your comment concerning allen miller having more credentials than all the posters of this thread is baseless and ignorant. Respect? One attribute I enjoy about intelligent people is knowing what humility is. And therein lays the obvious problem. Jon

[Anonymous]

Just because one has credentials in the hobby, does not mean that he needs his thoughts to be taken as gospel.
Pat Dorn who has written many excellent RR books is a good friend of mine, and is a very humble and nice man. He would admit that just because he has been involved with trains and books does not mean he has any more knowledge as does the next guy when it comes to making a decision as to who is right or wrong. He has became the excellent author he is by listening to people as much as possible.
I am not saying that Allen is not capable of deciding that MTH is better than anyone else, but what does writting train books have to do with personal feelings.
Lets keep everybody on equal track here, all of our opinions should be respected equally. You don;t have to agree with them, but you do not have to put someone down for not thinking the same way as you.
My personal feelings are that the course MTH is on is not healthy for the hobby but who knows that I am not 100% wrong, or someone else is 100% right.
I had predicted as did many others that MTH would meet a whole new world of people if they tried to force things their way on the DCC people, not because I am extra smart, but because of all the train people I associate with. I am the only one in 3 rail in the model rr people in our area and all the rest are in HO and DCC. I hear their side everyday. That is going to reflect my opinions just as hearing the MTH side everyday is going to affect someone else feelings.
The bad thing is, MY feelings are that this is not going to go away for a long time. dave roxin

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thanks guys, It's nice to see that I'm not the only one who felt that Alan's comments were a bit off. I didn't mean to cause such a stir over that. I have been warned about Frankie liking to troll, so that is no real surprise.

I checked the magazine index yesterday, and Allan is credited with authoring 4 items. Of course he has over 10,000 posts on the other forum in a 4 year period, which means he reads a lot and is very active. This MTH stuff is mostly opinion anyway, and you know what they say about that.

Opinions are like A-- H----, everybody has one.[swg]

[Anonymous]

Big Boy, glad you agree. Allen likes to intimidate and does a good job of it if allowed to get by with it. That is why he can get buy swearing etc on the other board as he will bug you tell you go nuts.
That is abusing your knowledge in my book.
He just bought his first command engine this past year and had been running williams engines without the electronics for the previous time.
His knowledge may be soild in the past, but with the new state of the art stuff he is a newbe. He even admitted it on a post when it was a big deal that he was going to try the new stuff.
That is the ONLY reason I went out in a bad note on the other board. I wanted to make a point and I did. PS. if you read a post by allen shortly after I made my bad one you will see allen uses the Pxxxed off word and gets by with it. He an Rich must be best friends.
Remember this is my opinion and not necessarly any others and is for information only. dave.
Thanks Elliot for backing me up.
PS I miss you train layout at the Mall O America. That makes you more model train oriented than most in my way of thinking. I saw it just before you closed and it was awesome.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thanks Dave. I did that Google search and was surprised. I actually own a couple of things that Allan has authored. If you do the search, it's "Allan W Miller". There's a difference between writing about something and doing it. That's why I like Dave Vergun so much, he does things and then writes about them. I've never been much of a writer, but the forum has been a fun way to share my experience.

By the way the most interesting discussion is over on the MR forum. MTH is being given a bit of an ear full. The scary part is they might be listening, finally. Their experience in the O gauge market doesn't exactly translate into HO.

[Bob Keller]

Well guys, I think this thread is reaching the "dead horse" stage. why don't we three-railers move on to another topic, and let the HO guys, over in MR, duke it out over this topic.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Girl_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by Allan Miller

"Allan, I think you are underestimating the diverse cross section of people on this board. In terms of polling demographics I would bet that this forum represents the hobby world quite well."
---------------------------------
I will be delighted to take that bet! [:)]

Allan,

I spent alot of time yesterday coming up with a response using numbers. I've decided to scratch that. Here is one though. 163,780. This was the number of registered members as of approx one pm yesterday. Also at this time there were 20 people who had just signed up. Yes, not all of these people are around anymore. Just remember that lack of posts does not mean lack of presence.

Diverse-Made up of distinct characteristics, qualities, or elements.

From reading and talking to other forum members I know it is true.

Without getting into the argument of will MTH succeed or not, is MTH the O gauge evil empire, etc., let me try to clear a few things up.

I used to do a lot of statistical analysis at my first "real" job (if you don't count my 6 month tenure as a high school teacher). There's a difference between "diverse" and "statistically significant" which seems to be confused here by many participants.

The population of this forum certainly is a diverse group. And, in one sense, it's population is somewhat random within the O gauge community, in that no one has any control over who will join or when. But this group does not represent a statistically valid sampling of the greater O gauge population.

From a statistical standpoint, a sample, no matter how it is picked, is valid if the samlpe's characteristics match those of the greater population within certain tolerances. That is, you look for demographic characteristics in the population, such as age distribution, income distribution, and others, depending upon the intent of the survey. Once you have these determined, you randomly pick people from the population & measure the same distribution characteristics. If the sample's results are close enough to the population's, the sample is statistically valid.

Note that even if a sample is picked randomly, there is no gaurantee that the sample is valid (that is, the individuals in the sample may not be truly representative of the population). That's why, when you're deciding who to survey, you pick multiple samples & take the one that fits the population best.

Now, with that all said, the odds are that the population of this forum, or any other, are a statistically valid sample of the entire O gauge population are very small. It's possible, but unlikely.

The only way to know what the HO community thinks about MTH is to wait to see how MTH does in the market.

Tony

[Anonymous]

I've thoroughly enjoyed reading all the comments about me--pro and con. Very interesting and enterTraining!

However, there's one comment in particular that merits some response from me:

"He just bought his first command engine this past year and had been running williams engines without the electronics for the previous time. His knowledge may be soild in the past, but with the new state of the art stuff he is a newbe."

Not quite true! I had and was using TMCC locomotives and control components even before the stuff was available to most consumers. I have been using Marklin Digital for years (even before TMCC and well before a DCC standard existed), and I have used the LGB MTS system since it was introduced. So, I'm not exactly a novice to the technology, and I'm certainly not intimidated by it. I held off on DCS until I felt comfortable that MTH had addressed most of the inevitable early bugs in the system, but now have both TMCC and DCS, with DCC soon to be added (Digitrax) to support my more recent interests in On30.

Just wanted to clarify that point.

You may now resume liking or despising me! Enjoy! [;)]

[Anonymous]

Allan, please read the webmasters suggestions to stop posting to this topic.
dave roxin.