Do not divide the track into separately powered blocks to provide different voltages according to the grade.
A modern "transformer" may be designed to allow its outputs to be connected together safely. If so, it probably puts out the higher voltage if two are connected. This may burn out wiring in two-pickup lighted cars as the train crosses from a high-voltage block to a low-voltage block, when the lighted car tries to supply the locomotive ahead from the block behind through an internal wire between pickups that was intended only for the current of the car's lamps. The same thing may happen using a single transformer and voltage-dropping elements, like rheostats or anti-parallel diodes.
Older, true transformers like your LW, will put out a fault current when the locomotive or any two-pickup car crosses a block gap. This is a worse situation than the more common level-track case, where the transformer voltages are intended to be the same, so that the fault current flows only by accident--on a grade, the point is to make the voltages different deliberately, guaranteeing a fault.
The worst case occurs when you use multiple outputs from the same transformer, in which case the fault current does not flow through the circuit breaker. It is limited only by wire resistance, can be very great, and will go on flowing until something burns up. See the warning on Lionel's KW schematic.
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Kooljock1Brass is a very soft metal. Engineering plastics can be made in a variety of hardnesses and strengths.
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Brass is a very soft metal. Engineering plastics can be made in a variety of hardnesses and strengths.
Jon
Dang ... Just bought a bunch of 031 curve pieces. Maybe I can sell them before I permanently set up my lay out. I'm pretty sure I have enough room to go with a wider radius.
The gear on my other loco went out before I added the elevation. Not sure if I was trying to pull to many cars with it or it was just time for it to go. The one that is in it is brass. It seems all the new ones I see listed are plastic.
charliebrown Not sure this will help all the scenarios here but I'll try. First as mentioned in other posting I'm just getting back into trains. I have had Lionels in the past but never did a solid set up. My only set up I have done on solid board was "n" scale. I'm using the trestle system mentioned (6-12754). It has 22 pieces. Each piece is supposed to be placed where the track sections come together. I'm using Lionel 0 scale track with 031 curve sections. My one thought is to approach the over under on a straight instead of under and trying to work up the curve on an incline. I still like the idea of trying two locos together but personally didn't think this would work. Especially since the one loco only has one motor. Which ever way i go this needs to be a long term fix. I did notice even pulling 18 cars my current engine seems to slow quite a bit. I know it is only rated for 25 cars so the larger engine might be the best solution. I know I might end up in divorce court after getting the new one but then I could get all I wanted. lol Thanks for all the great info and keep it coming. You guys and your experience have pointed out things there is no way i would have thought of!!
Not sure this will help all the scenarios here but I'll try. First as mentioned in other posting I'm just getting back into trains. I have had Lionels in the past but never did a solid set up. My only set up I have done on solid board was "n" scale.
I'm using the trestle system mentioned (6-12754). It has 22 pieces. Each piece is supposed to be placed where the track sections come together. I'm using Lionel 0 scale track with 031 curve sections.
My one thought is to approach the over under on a straight instead of under and trying to work up the curve on an incline. I still like the idea of trying two locos together but personally didn't think this would work. Especially since the one loco only has one motor.
Which ever way i go this needs to be a long term fix. I did notice even pulling 18 cars my current engine seems to slow quite a bit. I know it is only rated for 25 cars so the larger engine might be the best solution. I know I might end up in divorce court after getting the new one but then I could get all I wanted. lol
Thanks for all the great info and keep it coming. You guys and your experience have pointed out things there is no way i would have thought of!!
22 pieces is 11 per side. Still need the measurements. Any increase in grade, especially when coupled with curvature, decreases load pulling ability. May have exacerbated the failure of the gear in your other engine.
If you cut the benchwork with a sabre saw, like cookie cutter method, drop the part that drops under the bridge by half the distance (let's say you had six inches before, not the bridge is 3 inches above the old bench height), you have cut your grade in half. That will require more track....not a tight figure eight, but it will help you get there. Cut the top part cookie cutter, brace it all up with 1X4's, add screen and plaster, you do away with the trestle parts for most of it.
031 is only 4" wider diameter. If you are using full 0 track, not sure any more.....used to be the next choice was 072 (which I used to use). I am certain that there are others in between now.
Do me a favour, please. Measure the height of the rail to the bench at the highest point, the roughly measure the centre rail from the last place it's level at the bench to the place it levels at the top.
That will allow us to calculate your grade for sure.
I gave up on 031 for trains of any length in.....1971.
I like long trains, and 031 just didn't cut it for me. Personal opinion only.
Lockons, yes, as long as you keep polarity the same, you can add as many as you want. I would use 14ga wire, but if you have a lot of them, smaller feeders can be used.
I have another question. It seems like a stupid one but I was told once that the only stupid question is the one not asked.
Is there any way to wire two different power lock on tabs on the layout. Say one to each half and going to the same terminals on the transformer?
So are you say even a 031 curve would be to tight?
Do the math, John. As delivered, they were 027, a figure 8 with a trestle set. If he's using 031, a tad longer sections. Roughly 5" rise, in 99 inches...that's 5%. If he's got it squeezed tighter, well, steeper.
5%. Ruling mainline is 2%. Ruling narrow gauge is 4%. (lots of variables, but a good number set to start with).
18 cars on level track.
Pulling those up a 5% (or steeper) is going to be very difficult, especially when you add in 027 or 031 curves.
Now, if he had the room to extend out, and make the grades on straight track, he's be able to do better.
10 cars either spun out or derailed?
I run LONG trains up and down 4% all the time. But NOT around 027 or 031 curves.
You add the drag of the curve to the grade, well, again, did you read the bit about slipping or derailing?Add more head end, pull them all off the sides.
What kind of curves are you using on 5% or greater grades?
I have run 30 car consists up a 4% grade with a single dual-motored Legacy locomotive, so it's not unrealistic to be able to run 15-20 cars up a similar grade.
I'm curious where the 10% came from, I've never seen a trestle system that did that if you used it as intended. They can get to 5-6% at the most. I don't see that number mentioned in the first post.
I see the mention of the 6-12754 Trestle set. Let's assume O27, which would be the worst case. You have eleven 9" track sections for the 4 3/4" rise. So, you're going up less than 5" in 99", sounds more like a 5% grade, not a 10% grade.
Are we using the new math here, or is there something left out of the description?
Kooljock1 Any Odyssey-Equipped or Legacy-Equipped loco will handle what you want to do with ease. Lionel now has some reasonably priced GP-7's and GP-9's equipped with die-cast trucks and cruise-control that will work in both Command and Conventional modes. Steamers, as always, cost a bit more. Jon
Any Odyssey-Equipped or Legacy-Equipped loco will handle what you want to do with ease. Lionel now has some reasonably priced GP-7's and GP-9's equipped with die-cast trucks and cruise-control that will work in both Command and Conventional modes.
Steamers, as always, cost a bit more.
So. Odyssey or Legacy equipped locos suddenly give engine super powers, to handle 10% grades with a train like on level track, and 027 curves like tangent?
Here is the original issue, from the first post in this thread:
"I was pulling 18 cars on a flat service. I recently added a trestle over and under to my layout. Unfortunately there is no way for it to pull all these cars up the upgrade. Even taking it down to 10 cars it wants to spin or derail".
Now, spin, as described in subsequent posts, appears to be lack of tractive effort. Exactly how do these two controls fix that given the same locomotive, track, train and grades?
Next, derail.
You haul 10 cars up an 027 curve on a 10% grade......I suppose if you put a control-specific decoder in each truck of each car you could eliminate that problem.
Now, we're guessing 027, as it isn't specified, but we (most of us) know trying to jam a 10-car train up a 10% grade on 027 curves doesn't do well.
Please elucidate the abilities of these two systems to correct this physically improbably scenario.
Thanks.
One thing I don't believe has been suggested is to lesson the vertical clearance at the track crossings to about 5" above the lower track. Most rolling stock will clear this with the exception of a few cars such as Superliners, Double stacks, etc.
On my layout the grade is 2% and I can pull really long trains up the grade with most of my locomotives. All of the trains in my videos on the website noted below go up the grade.
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It's a brand new loco but the track is used so I guess the traction tires would be good in shape. It is running dual motors so I guess either end wouldn't make a difference. It sounds to me it is just to lite of a loco for what I'm wanting to run. So I guess either new heavier loco or take out the over/under. I still plan to try and change the elevation pitch though.
The design I'm thinking of going with would be more of a double loop at one end of the layout which would have the over / under. It wouldn't be a tight area. I'm thinking it is about 6 x 6.5.
some times if you place the end with a motor in it to the rear of the engine insteat of the front it will help a little also maybe some extra weight in the engine also how are the traction tires do they need replacing?
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As mentioned above, what you have was designed for short trains. If you made the over and under figure eight a few cars is all that grade will allow.
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I like the idea of the plywood for added support. I did notice if I up the power when approaching the incline it did make it easier. Any suggestions on a loco I can get that could pull 20 or more cars up the incline after I modify the elevation?
You've got a few things working against you here:
1. The standard trestle sets available for tinplate track are designed to attain the highest elevation in the shortest stretch of track. Real railroads avoid this by hiring civil engineers to seek the straightest, levelest route. As mentioned above, even doubling the distance between bents is often too steep.
2. Your starter set GP-38 has very little tractive effort. Even with Traction Tires, the light-weight trucks and small Can motors just don't exert the kind of power to the rails that a Cruise-equipped die-cast loco can.
Solutions: extend the distance between bents. I did this by creating a plywood roadbed for support, and then mounting that on the bents and covering all with scenery.
You can also wire your grades into blocks, using separate handles on your transformer to control the power needs of the "Up", "Level" and "Down" blocks.
I have the Lionel trestle set number 6-12754. It has 22 pieces. I installed it as per instructions where each track piece connects a trestle piece is put. I guess I could stretch that out and try it to degrade the steepness. I was thinking even going with a cross over. The only problem with that is I want and like running a longer train. So with the room I have and the layout I'm looking at it would run into itself before all the cars would clear. I guess if the moving of the piers doesn't work I'll look to removing the trestle system. As far as running two engines I kinda understand what your saying with string-line. I may try two engines if I ever get my other engine repaired. My thought is to maybe rework the curves that are under the trestle.
You can get the grade down by dropping the lower track at half the grade you now have, then drop the upper by half. The clearance in the middle will be the same.
Type of transformer is immaterial in this issue. The issue is the steepness of the grade. If you are using the manufacturer supplied trestle set, you're looking at what, a 10% grade?
You need to keep it to less than half of that, preferably 1/4 of that.
2% is acceptable. 2% is 2" in 100" of run. Or, 1" in 50". That's close to 48", so 1" rise for every 4 feet.
Measure your maximum height at bottom of ties to bench. (or you can do as I'm sure the next argument will tell you...measure to the top of the rails, then go to the lowest part, and subtract thatb reading from then first).
Then, measure the top of the centre rail from the last known flat-to-thwe-bench part, to the absolute uppermost point of the rail at the top of the trestle, and calculate your grade.
All two engines is going to to is "string-line" your train, pulling it all off the inside of the curve.
Look at the sets sold with the trestle set.
3 or 4 cars, some maybe 5. That's it.
Rework your grade or get rid of it.
Just a suggestion.
Sounds like you could do with adding another loco. Two can pull a lot more than one.
I have a newer Lionel Gp-38 engine. I was pulling 18 cars on a flat service. I recently added a trestle over and under to my layout. Unfortunately there is no way for it to pull all these cars up the upgrade. Even taking it down to 10 cars it wants to spin or derail. Number one do I just need a bigger engine? Number 2 do I just need to re-clean the track and possible clean the drive wheels? I'm using a Lionel lw transformer. My layout is about 44 foot of track.
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