i think i found the solution. the 36621 milk car is slighly higher than all other cars. in a turn the tab turns slighly and pushes the tab down, opening the coupler. i bent the tab slighly down so the car behind it or in front of it won't hit the tab. No more uncoupling!!!!!
It's tension and vibration. You can pull all day long in a static environment, but add the vibration of a dynamic environment and the pin will move.
Re-peening the rivet on the flat spring will do no good other than smash the rivet over and jam the mechanism. Had a bunch through here last year someone had tried that.
If the spring in bent, you can re-form it in place with a pair of hemostats. But I think we have determined the spring is okay.
Vertical OR leaning back towards the car body a tad is what you need. If the pin is loose in the armature (moving lower plate) report back here.
Curmudgeon:
Yes, after reading the reply several times, I have the picture of the spring and comparing the bad one to a known good one.
Yes, I think I understand about the vertical pin - it must be straight up and down, correct? If is isn't, it won't work.
Larry, I have checked the springs, and they seem fine. One of the cars that was giving trouble, the 2006 Railway Express Agency Operating Milk Car, I have check the springs, closed the tab, and cannot open the tab myself by pulling on it. It appears shut tight. I don't think the locomotive drawbar pull is as strong as my hand trying to force it open.
Again, I really thank everyone for their input. It is nice to know that there are members who are willing to help, offer advice and try and figure out the problem, so one is alone in it! I have a consist of 12 cars, including a few operating milk cars - no problems!
Condector,
The service and parts diagram for the 6-19802 Carnation car is here. The trucks, couplers and armature are identical to the post-war issue parts, have the same part numbers, and the armature is made of sheet steel. Parts diagrams are not available for the other milk cars, but it seems from your posts that they have identical couplers and armatures. You may need to take the base plate off the wheelset and peen over the shank end of the armature rivet a bit more, while backing up the rivet head. This will deflect the flat spring more, giving it more tension and keeping the coupler from opening randomly. As stated before, also make sure the coupler itself is parallel to the track and at the same height as couplers on other cars. If the armature pin is not perpendicular to the armature plate, do NOT bend the pin; bend the front of the armature in front of the pin. When properly adjusted, maintained and installed, the coupler mechanism will work properly and have few, if any, issues. The only maintenance is the replacement of weak flat springs that cause random openings of the coupler.
Larry
The 6-19802 Carnation, from external appearances, looks to be PT-1 style, with shoes (no roller).
The 6-19894 Hoods appears to be same.
The 6-26863 American Rail Express Milk Car ,looks same.
The 6-37011 B&M appears the same, from a photo on the Lionel website.
That means, either the flat spring inside the base that pulls the armature up is weak, or the vertical pin is bent.
If you try to bend the pin, you in most all probability will either break it off or knock it loose.
Check for flat spring by comparing downforce needed on a troublesome truck to a known good one. If the spring tension is about the same, it isn't the spring. If the pin is not vertical, no amount of spring pressure that would still allow uncoupling would hold it shut.
You understand what I'm talking about with the vertical pin, right?
Looking at your picture, it is not those couplers. I made a list of the cars involved and posted them.
Perhaps it will help if I took pictures of the cars and couplers and posted them.
The ones with the flanged axles (like the modern box cars) that seem to roll forever, there are no problems.
The Operating Barrel Cars of the post-Kugn era have the same couplers as the operating milk cars - they don't have problems. It sounds as if the pin is out of alignment, or the car is too heavy to run an entire consist of operating milk cars. The 3472/3482 pre-1955 versions are smaller, but heavier-and have the better couplers that gave no problems......and they are not the coil-type either. I think those coil couplers were dropped after 1950.
Hope that helps. Tell me what you think of the idea of pictures of the cars.
Train Larry:
The following operating Milk Cars are the ones with the problems:
6-19802 Carnation Milk Car (1988)
6-19894 Hoods Operating Milk Car (2004)
6-26863 American Rail Express Milk Car (2006)
6-37011 Boston and Main Operating Milk Car (2009)
I have had no problems with the TCA 61052 Penn Dutch Dairy Operating Milk Car made in 1994. All of these cars were bought brand new. I have two of the Penn Dutch Dairy Cars and two of the Carnation cars. Both Carnation cars have the problem.
It seems as if all parts are metal, but my eyes are not that good anymore to detect. Maybe you have some of these cars in your collection. I glued my 1955 Brown-and-white Operating Milk car couplers shut after I bought it when it came out. The 3672 Bosco Milk car, bought in 1959, didn't have the problem, so I left it alone. Good thing, seeing the original edition, with box, platform, cans, are hard-to-find. I did not buy the 2010 (?) re-issue.
If you have any of these cars, I hope you can shed some light. Three of them are made in China. The 26863 ARE Express and 37011 Boston and Maine are among the worst with the problem.
Which is why I was trying to determine. Changed in 1955 to a tab coupler that was junk, not my experience. I was no aware Lionel re-did those old PT-1 style as late as 2009. Everything I've seen went plastic,. then die cast sprung.
Maybe for the TCA they dug out the old tooling.
BTW, if the operating arm is pot metal do NOT try to bend it!
If it is possible, can you post a picture of the trucks in question, or the number of the car(s) in question. Your statement that the armature and tab are possibly made of 'pot' metal does not sound like the postwar-type armatures made of steel. We may not be talking about the same trucks/couplers here.
I was just trying to figure out what you actually have. If you have fast-angle wheels, then couplers that bend around the axles don't work well. One of my last purchases were the two NP bay window cabooses...one of which tried that, and really does drag, as the axle turns inside the coupler plate.
PT-1 trucks USUALLY have the wheels spinning on the axles.
There were some trucks that had a spring steel plate with pin rivetted into the coupler head.
I think (near as I can tell from photos from that era) that you might have sprung trucks, but I'm guessing.
Back 20-25 years ago when I was still buying, I'd get a car with fast-angle wheel trucks, first order of business was to yank them and install PT-1's with tab couplers.
This is a tab couple on a PT-1 style with roller:
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr341/Railroad-Rob/Marx%20490/PICKUP/IMG_0610.jpg
To the best of what I can see, the tab and armature is made of metal - probably "pot" metal. Since the operating cars have sliding shoes, the wheel must be able to conduct current.
The non-operating cars have a cheaper non-tab coupler. It is nothing like the post-war quality.
I bought my milk car the same time I bought the "Ringing Highway Signal." Remember those? They were a piece of crap! The 154 non-ringing signal worked far better!
So, you see what I mean about a drop in quality. I am sure Roger Carp will address that in the forthcoming 1955-59 special coming out. The "old man," Joshua Lionel Cowen, became less involved in the last years. Some collectors believe the period 1952-1954 was Lionel's best in quality. I can say 1957 was the last year all the great accessories were available. Most were discontinued for the "space" age merchandise that, in my opinion, did not help Lionel.
But, the real topic here is trying to fix the "tab" uncoupling problem. Your suggestion makes sense. I will look at the pin, and if it is not properly set a vertical, bend it. I hope it does not break. If it does, there is always a screw or something.
Thanks for taking the time to post and that suggestion.
Condector In 1955, Lionel decided to reduce quality control. One of the results was adding tabs to the 3662 operating milk car and other operating cars. That practice on the milk car continues to this day. When I bought my 3662 milk car in 1955, it kept coming uncoupled while the train ran. I got frustrated, and glued the couplers shut. No more problems. My problem now is I have collected the nicest of modern-day Lionel operating milk cars. I tried to pull a consist of all-milk cars. Some kept coming uncoupled during movement. Then, I put on or two milk cars mixed with other type cars, non-operating. They STILL kept coming uncoupled. This problem leaves me frustated. In don't want to glue them unless absolutely necessary. Have any of you members had this problem with this "tab" couplers? The pin seems a little flimsy and not like the pre-1955 cars. I would appreciate any and all suggestions from readers as to how to deal with this problem. Thanks so very much!
In 1955, Lionel decided to reduce quality control. One of the results was adding tabs to the 3662 operating milk car and other operating cars. That practice on the milk car continues to this day.
When I bought my 3662 milk car in 1955, it kept coming uncoupled while the train ran. I got frustrated, and glued the couplers shut. No more problems.
My problem now is I have collected the nicest of modern-day Lionel operating milk cars. I tried to pull a consist of all-milk cars. Some kept coming uncoupled during movement. Then, I put on or two milk cars mixed with other type cars, non-operating. They STILL kept coming uncoupled.
This problem leaves me frustated. In don't want to glue them unless absolutely necessary. Have any of you members had this problem with this "tab" couplers? The pin seems a little flimsy and not like the pre-1955 cars. I would appreciate any and all suggestions from readers as to how to deal with this problem.
Thanks so very much!
The original 3662 used a standard 483-2 coupler (with sliding shoe) to fit the PT-1 trucks. The only difference between that and the "tab" coupler is, well, the tab that sticks out the side.
On those, you need to make sure (as stated in this thread) that the flat spring in the bottom of the coupler base is pulling the pin up smartly.
Next, look at the coupler closely from the side. Carefully pull down the arm and see if the pin is either dead vertical or leaning slightly towards the car body. If it leans towards the face of the coupler, under load it will open.
I usually bend the flat portion between the angle and the pin, usually at the bend to the angle, to get it dead vertical or slightly leaning backwards.
I don't remember tabs on the couplers with sliding shoes, altho that probably was normal.
Not being involved with current items too much, the ones I am used to have a plastic pin and armature.
And a plastic tab.
Which ones do you have?
Ken:
It is the orange car and the other 9500 series of that era that have problems with the couplers - although the couplers do not open or close, they slide out from under the car next to it and the train is broken up. Yes, tie cables may be the answer, but they are such a nuisance to take on and off. I used the cables on the early Williams Amfleet cars, but have learned how to adjust to coupler not to come apart.
Not to stray too far from the Milk Cars, but the only 9500 cars that had couplers screwed directly into the car bodies were the first (3) issues from 73, 74, and 75. These couplers are non-operating.
The pictures show the early couplers, and the new trucks used starting in 1980 with an operating coupler that is part of the truck itself.
Ken
Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that most, if not all your modern operating milk cars use the same coupler assembly as the postwar issued cars did. All of the remedies would then apply to them also. If they have different coupler set ups, would you list individual car numbers.
If the couplers that screw in place, like in the 9500 series cars come loose, perhaps a small lockwasher under the screwhead may help.
Prairietype and TrainLarry:
I have all the post-war milk cars from the 3472 to the rare original 3672 Bosco Car.
The problem comes from modern Lionel cars. Kughn made the "Carnation Car" in 1988, then I have the nice ones issued in various years from the Hoods to the REA Express, and Boston and Maine 2009 release, the last I considered collectible.....and, two gorgeous Penn Dutch Dairy TCA 1994 ooperating milk cars. These are the cars with the problems.
As I mentioned earlier, it was around 1950 or 1951 when Lionel dropped the coil couplers to plain magnetic ones, which worked very well. In 1955, the "tab-release" type was introduced and worked all right on most cars, but the milk car (3662) proved too heavy for those flimsy pins.
Someone mentioned trouble with the Polar Express cars, which are identical to the 9500 "baby" madison heavyweights. The situation is different in those cars - the coupler is separate from the wheels - it is screwed in, and they do have a tendency to come loose. Any suggestions on those?
I very much appreciate the "tie strips" suggestions, but I have tried that before with both the 9500 series and/or the milk car series. They usually work, but it takes time to do it, and I would rather run a mixed consist then fool with that. It had limited success on the 9500 series.
If you try to use electrical tape on the 9500 couplers, they will derail on 031" curves, as they cannot swing as freely. If it is not one thing, it is another.
I appreciate all the responses. That is what makes this forum so special - other collectors offer help to those who need it. Thank you so much. If there are other ideas, please keep them coming.
On boxcars, I have never had any problems. The only troublesome ones are the milk cars, probably because they are heavy, and the 9500 baby madison cars.
Maybe a good solution to an all-milk consist would be to use non-operating cars, which are lighter, mixed in with the operating ones. Out of a consist of 10 cars of various types, I can get away with about three modern operating milk cars.
Even the operating horse and cattle cars do not seem as heavy in weight as the milk cars. The 3662 and beyond should have retained the wheels and pins from the 3482 model. But yes, if one examines the 3482 with the 3662, there are cutbacks in detail and quality, although the 3662 model is longer.
If all your milk cars are postwar issue, then it is possible that all of the armature springs may have lost their tension over the decades. When the armature tab is pressed and released, the armature should snap all the way back up tight. If it does not, the spring tension is insufficient. If the coupler is not parallel to the track and at the proper height, or the armature pin does not enter the coupler straight, there will be problems with the cars staying coupled. All these items need to be checked.
Prairietype,
If your rolling stock uses the plastic armature with the 'thumbtack' plunger, these also have issues after time with the plastic losing its' spring tension. Simply snap out the armature on your bad truck, and snap a new one in. You can even swap out the armatures on the same boxcar end for end, and see if the problem follows the armature, or stays with the truck.
A very timely post. I was plagued with uncoupling issues with my PolEx madison cars just this weekend. I think I'll try a small rubber band around the coupler shank.
Regards,
CJ Meyers
Condector So, I would like to run a consist of only milk cars, if there is a way without gluing. Plastic cable ties have been suggested. Where does one get those?
So, I would like to run a consist of only milk cars, if there is a way without gluing. Plastic cable ties have been suggested. Where does one get those?
ACE hardware has them.
Joined 1-21-2011 TCA 13-68614
Kev, From The North Bluff Above Marseilles IL.
Thank you, TrainLarry, for your comment and suggestion. Between the coil couplers were dropped around 1950 and replaced by a simple magnetic one. I never had a problem with those. Perhaps the tabs were added, not as a lack of quality control, but to allow quick uncoupling anywhere on the track. Anyway, these type couplers have been nothing but trouble. If the problem lies in the rivet spring and coupler assembly, then it is on EVERY one of my new milk cars. The milk cars are fine when run with one or two in a consist, but a train made up of about ten milk cars causes the couplers to come apart. I think it is the weight issue. Milk cars are heavier than most other operating cars. The operating barrel or lumber cars don't have this problem, even if they are all in a consisit.
Thank you.
TCA 86-23186
The couplers have been a problem since I can remember. I have had that problem with pre 1955 couplers also. The first one that comes to mind is the one on my 6026W tender, behind my 685 Hudson from 1953. Originally I used a rubber band. The latest fix that I have been doing is using plastic cable ties, like Kev stated. I do like to run a long consist.
I also use cable ties on my Standard Gauge as an insurance policy, for I have had them come apart also.
John
I agree with the solutions already posted.
I've been working on this mall layout. A lot of our rolling stock is donated and dates from the 90's with the plastic trucks that have what I call the "plunger thumb tacks." Most every one of these box cars connect perfectly and reliably, except 1 truck on 1 box car. It looks right but there is something there that allows the pin to slip down and release.
I was in a hurry and just took a piece of wire and twisted it around that coupler and it has held well. I did not want to glue it because 1) didn't have any glue, and 2) didn't want such a drastic and possibly permanent remedy. But this discussion got me thinking....
I may try a gooo solution as opposed to glue. A slightly thick lubricant may keep the pin in place under normal operations, or some other gooo that would make the coupler stick while the connecting coupler becomes the primary operational couple.
I may get around to that this week and if it works well I'll try to share the results.
When I encounter this the first attempt is to move the guilty car to the rear of the train. If that doesn't work I use a black rubber band that you can normally find at the grocery store in the ladies hair care aisle, it's the one they use for pony tails/etc. There are about 3 or 4 different sizes in the bag and the best thing is they are black so they don't stand out and they will last quite awhile before they start to dryrot and have to be replaced.
Remember the Veterans. Past, present and future.
www.sd3r.org
Proud New Member Of The NRA
I have seen this on more modern cars and some post war and my fix is to wrap a very small Ty wrap. under 4" around the coupler then cut off the extra to keep them from uncoupling. ( you can cut it off at any time and not changed the car) I have seen this with tab and non tabbed couplers mostly from the MPC cars and I disagree with Larry that it is not a quality issue, it is if they don't work as they should...., but more over it may be an issue of not knowing how many cars one may want to run in a consist and under designing.
I do not believe that the type of coupler you are having difficulty with was caused by a lack of quality control. The coupler was just a new style developed to replace the coil couplers. More than likely, the armature spring on your couplers is weak, not allowing the knuckle to lock properly in place. Sometimes you can gently squeeze the armature spring rivet slightly to give the flat spring more of a bow and more tension, and that will allow the knuckle to close better. Sometimes the rivet and spring need to be replaced if the spring has no more tension in it, or is cracked. Parts dealers have the rivet and spring, or the complete base plate and coupler assembly. See here for a pictorial.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.
Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month