Lackawanna 2321 motor problem

[maglobal]

My 2321 has always run powerful and smoothly. lately...it appears only one motor is operating smoothly while the other one seems to stick and hang up...and once engaged does not seem to be running at max.

removed cover....can observe motors....put oil on the oil indicator on the motors.....

I rate myself as a an advanced novice skill level....just not sure where to start or how to identify root cause.....

do I need to replace the motor?

thank you!

[cwburfle]

The motors will benefit from an occasional cleaning and lubrication. It is very unlikely that you need to replace the motor.
At the moment, I am not able to describe basic cleaning and lubrication steps for these motors in detail.

[TRAINCAT]

Sounds like its time for overhaul. Both motors need to be running together in speed. Do you have a Greenberg repair manual? That would be very helpful. Here is what needs to be done:

Remove trucks(one screw in the bottom of each) and clean/relube them.

Un-solder both motors from the wiring and clean the brush caps and tubes well.

You probably need new brushes, all should be similar in length.

Clean the armature commutators well with a pencil eraser or fine emery cloth.

If you feel you can handle it, remove the "C" clip from the bottom of the motors where the shaft comes out above the worm gear and pull out the entire armature. Note that there will be a set of bearings and washers at each end. These need to be cleaned with mineral spirits and re-lubed. Clean the bronze bushings in the housing and re-oil them. Re-install the assembly paying attention to how the bearings go- washer/bearings/washer at each end of the shaft. Replace that C clip. Install new brushes with the slot end up and replace the brush caps. The motors should spin freely at this point. When you put the motors back into the trucks make sure the gears are meshing ok before installing the bottom screws.

This should fix your engine at this point. If not, I can help.

Roger

[maglobal]

Thank  you for support!   I suspected it was cleaning!

[maglobal]

Hi Roger -

Thank  you for your great response! I do have a Greenberg manual....I guess I just needed the nudge. I am going to go for it as you recommended....I will let you know how it goes....while a lifelong Lionel user....only recently have I gotten the bug to keep them going....a little encouragement goes a long way - I am tyring to unlearn the concept that '....things cannot be maintained or  fixed'....that they need to be replaced!

Have a great day!

 

 

[TRAINCAT]

Thats the great thing about Lionel. Most anything can be repaired and almost any part can be had. Have fun.

Roger

[maglobal]

Well --- I'm making progress....and appear to be halfway there .... but not clear which way I'm moving!

I followed your instructions (up to removing the C clip). Thorough cleaning.

The motor now works great...but only in one direction. It cycles through up until change of direction...then the problem motor just hangs .... if I nudge it with my finger...I get a little movement but it seems to be straining. Runs geat in other direction.

Next steps I am considering...would appreciate your insight on....

The brushes appear equal. If I switch the brushes around will that be a test that will narrow it down to the brush?

Could one of the washers inside somehow be causing it to bind?

Is theer a way to 'bench test' the motor ? Can I test it off the frame....to eliminate the E unit?

One thing is clear...I love that train!

Thanks.

 

 

[TRAINCAT]

There is a way to bench test the motor and should be done before installing them. Take a wire from your transformer and attach it to one brush. Jumper the other brush to the motor field wire in the middle of the cap. Take the other remaining transformer wire and ground it to the motor frame. It should now run. You reverse direction by switching the wires to the other brush like you did the first one. If the motor runs well in each direction you likely have E unit troubles and I would bet that is your trouble now. You may have one weak motor brush spring. Eye ball them and see if they extend into the brush well by equal amounts when off the motor.

Roger

[lionelsoni]

Since the two motors are wired entirely in parallel, I see no way that an e-unit problem could affect them differently.

Often a thrust-bearing problem causes a motor like this, whose shaft is a worm, to behave differently between forward and reverse.  The armature can be seen to rise when run in one direction and fall in the other direction, due to the thrust of the worm.  Two separate thrust bearings restrain the armature travel in the up and down directions.  If one fails, or if it is so loose that it allows the armature to move far enough to interfere with something or not to contact the brushes, the motor will run in only one direction.  The two thrust bearings are located on the bottom end of the armature shaft in this motor.

Here is a picture:  http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/locos/loc2321c.pdf

[maglobal]

First of all...thank you all for your interest and help!  It has been 'spot on' and very valuable and much appreciated.  

So, that said...back to work.... here's where I'm at now....I re-confirmed the  situation....the motor away from the e unit....only moves in one direction.

I worked the e unit through the cycles and observed it appears to cycle as expected.

I then removed and bench tested both motors and both worked in either direction. I cleaned as best I could and checked brushes.

I then put motors backed, verified wiring correct. Insured worm inserted properly.

The same condition persists. No difference.  I switched motors ...same result.

I tested with a voltmeter the continuity from yellow eunit wire to motor post to other motor post. Not sure that proves anything as it appears continuity flows across the entire frame.

I was able to nail down the issue is with the motor associated with yellow wire side coming out of e unit.

Next step, seemingly a desperation move prior to focusing on e unit, is to replace the wire between motors. Is there a way to test the e-unit?

Is there a need to do it...since...when I reverse the power the engines cycle togeter in one direction while only one engine works in the other cycle. I suppose there could be an issue between the yellow wire or appropriate wire on the e unit and the post on the motor?

Would appreciate your experienced eyes on this!

My humble thanks again!

[lionelsoni]

It's not the wiring nor the e-unit.

You said you swapped the motors with the "same result".  Does that mean that the problem stayed with the originally bad motor or with the originally bad truck?

[maglobal]

Hi -

No...the problem did not follow the motors. The problem that remained was that the motor in the same position (on the horn side)  once removed...both motors tested ok.

Regardless of motor...the same problem remained. I did think that maybe it was an obstruction in the worm gear in the truck...but...it turns easily in both directions...when I turn the motor and when I turn the truck wheels.....I was, and still do, wish it was something related to something physical....but....am not optimistic.

I will switch the trucks as soon as I can just to confirm....is there any special trick to getting the worm gears meshed....can't imagine that...but.....

 

 

[cwburfle]

Check the gears carefully. There could be foreign material getting caught in one direction only. Sounds odd, but I've seen it.
You could have severely worn axle bearings, which are either allowing the wheels or worm gear to rub against the truck block.
The wheel / axle assembly is shifted from to one side by the action of the worm against it's gear. It shifts in one direction going "forward", and in the opposite direction going "backward".
When these bearings wear, the truck binds in one direction.

When this happens, the rubbing is usually visible, but one has to look for it.,

[maglobal]

Success! I took some quality time, sat down with my Greenberg, re-read all your advice and started eliminating things....I was left with only conclusion that it had to be electrical.....I cleaned and re-soldered the 3 wire connections. It works great again. Conclusion.....I started out to fix one thing (sluggish operation by thorough motor cleaning) and sloppy wiring created a new problem. You guys nailed it though....overall a great experience. I doubt I will ever reach the level of tech expertise demonstrated by this forum responses....but my immediate contribution can be to pass on advice to have confidence, take quality time and pay attention to the small stuff and THINK!   Thank you all!

[TRAINCAT]

Great  work. Everyone can learn to fix them.

Roger