I see you have another post going on installing a circuit breaker in the power line. I guess there is nothing wrong with doing that, but I don't think it is commonly done. Many people, myself included, recommend using external circuit breakers on the output side with the larger Lionel transformers like the ZW and KW. There are several reasons for doing so. The internal circuit breakers in these transformers are only designed to protect the transformer itself, and may not provide protection of your wiring or trains. (Note: there is only one breaker in most postwar Lionel Transformers, including the ZW and KW). Also, the internal circuit breakers do not protect every potential circuit. I like to use Postwar Lionel #91 adjustable electromagnetic circuit breakers on each of the "hot" power terminals on my transformers. That would be the A,B,C and D terminals on a ZW. I adjust them just high enough that whatever train I am running does not trip the breaker. (It is possibile to tighten the adjusting knob so tightly that the breaker cannot trip. Don't do it!)When a short occurs, the breaker will trip instantly. Some people find this annoying. Not I.
I recently purchased an Eaton Miniature Breaker 3amp. I saw a video where the engineer stated a 3amp rating was better than a 5amp or a 1amp breaker for running post-war trains. What do you think about that? I see that it seems the protection is really for the Transformer. In my case, I don't run modern engines. Besides the transformer issue of protection, what is the best protection for the operator against being electrocuted. I am new to all this.
thanks will go RadioShack today..
Mazz
Mazz Hi jeff can you tell me how many amps is the tvs, also can you tell me full name Of product .do I need to install one on negative feeder also? and where can I purchase the breaker thank you ..
Hi jeff can you tell me how many amps is the tvs, also can you tell me full name Of product .do I need to install one on negative feeder also? and where can I purchase the breaker thank you ..
Mazz if you go back and read the post you can get most of your answers on the TVS.
Not sure what Jeff uses but I use Bussmann BP/CB211-10-RP fast acting reseting mini fise breakers as in the picture below. They are 10 amp and protect the wires from the ZW to the track and anything else. They work great for me. You can get them at most any auto store or on line at Amazon or E-bay.
Joined 1-21-2011 TCA 13-68614
Kev, From The North Bluff Above Marseilles IL.
This stuff added is just to protect with your current trains with the older transformers, but even if I had new style transformer I would still put this stuff on for added protection.
There is no risk of destroying your old locomotives and/or risk of fire(no more today than in 1948, anyway). The ZW is just fine as long as the cord is good.
Rob
If there is a risk of destroying your old locomotives and/or risk of fire, why not just purchase a new Lionel Transformer? Will this do the trick?
I use the tvs all around track and behind zw plus use fast acting breaker
Put the lamp in parallel with the circuit breaker. When the circuit breaker is closed, the lamp will be looking at a short circuit. When the circuit breaker opens, the lamp will be in series with the load, which will probably be a short circuit (or something close to it if it drew so much current that the breaker just tripped). That will light the lamp. Even when the fault is cleared, the load will probably have such a low resistance that the lamp will remain lit. So, only if you disconnect the load entirely (take the locomotive off the track, for example), will the lamp go out.
Bob Nelson
I just purchased 10amp breakers for use on my zw for my layout on my power feeders. they are bussman 250vac resettable breakers. i have my layout wired with 14gauge wire for the power feeders...here is my question...
I want to wire red indicator bulbs to come on when the breaker trips. How would i do this, if i can...the zw indicator bulb is the type of action i am looking for....i am putting this on my layout and a layout for a xmas display and i want people to see when the breaker trips...
thanks
Thanks to Bob, BF, and others who have posted here. CTT is a terrific resource. Based on the knowledge I gained, I placed TVS diodes across each of my lock ons and will install them in the modern locomotives I have as I open them for service from time to time.
Did a quick test. At full power on the D-U contacts, the new breaker trips at around 5-7 seconds, so it's working, but with the casing off I can see smoke coming off the wiper, so I'm wondering how much damage that sort of thing does to the roller...
Mitch
Does it ever trip? If so, how long does it actually take? Thermal circuit breakers provide the useful function of modeling the approximate temperature of the wiring that they're protecting. This prevents what is called "nuisance tripping" on harmless momentary overloads. But it's possible your replacement circuit breaker is simply no good.
Individual breakers in series with the output terminals other than the common can be useful for two purposes: One is to stop fault currents when those terminals are accidentally connected together, as at block gaps. The other is to allow safe use of lighter wire for feeders, for example, AWG 16 with 10-ampere breakers. However, the common circuit breaker (15 ampere rating in your case) should still be retained if the currents in the individual circuits can sum to more than its rating (40 amperes in the 10-ampere example).
To paraphrase Lionel: The ZW's internal circuit breaker is designed to protect the transformer.
It's trip point is too high to protect commonly used wiring or much of anything else. Many people use smaller external breakers to provide a lower trip point for individual transformer outputs. I like to put one on each of the "Hot" terminal posts, "A" through "D". I use Lionel Postwar #91 electromagnetic, adjustable circuit breakers. When properly adjusted they will trip instantly on a short.
There are many other options.
I just got a postwar ZW with a bad breaker. Is a 15 amp automotive breaker the right choice to replace it? 'Cos I just put in a Littelfuse 15 amp breaker, and the durned thing practically arc welds without popping...
Thank you Rob.
There is a way to test the TVSs. You need two transformers, a power resistor, and an oscilloscope. Put the two transformers in series so the maximum voltage from one to the other is the sum of the out voltages of each one. Remove all of the electronics, such as locos and tenders and anything that has a TVS in it. Put the 100 ohm power resitor in series with the transformers. Then put the resistor and the other output of the transformers across the Lockon. With the scope, look at the waveform across the lockon. It should show clipping at about 30 volts. Now, if you have several TVSs you won't know if all of them are working. To test each one, you would have to separate them somehow. Don't test a loco or any electronics with a TVS this way.
Connor895 Great thread. I have a question. The TVS recommended (1.5KE36CA) appears to have an operating voltage of 30.8V and peek current of 30.5A. Why would you not go with a lower voltage TVS such as the 576-SA18CA with a operating voltage of 18V and 17.5A given that our ZWs are 18V?
Great thread. I have a question. The TVS recommended (1.5KE36CA) appears to have an operating voltage of 30.8V and peek current of 30.5A.
Why would you not go with a lower voltage TVS such as the 576-SA18CA with a operating voltage of 18V and 17.5A given that our ZWs are 18V?
While the transformers are putting out 18-20 volts RMS. the peak voltage(as visible on a scope) is 28-30 volts. The 576-SA18CA would clamp the operating/RMS voltage to ~12.8 volts.
This is not a recommendation from me. I am asking because I don't know. With my little bit of knowledge (the dangerous kind) it seems to me that a rating closer to 18V would give better spike protection? Possibly?
Thanks.
For this AC application, you use bi-directional TVSs. No polarity.
Do the TVS need to be applied in a certain direction? (Ie pointed toward a certain leg of the transformer like a diode?)
I put a TVS in each locomotive as I have occasion to open them up for other work. I also have them across the track feeds.
Perfect! I think I will just request pictures instead. Thanks again all!
Yes you can do it like this also. From what I have heard ( I think it was from Bob Nelson ) the closer it is to the engine's electronics the better. so this would be as far away as you could get and the least effective in protection. I use mine at the LockOns
Silentman,
Although I am not hungover this morning, I still can't visualize exactly what you are proposing. Also, I have a tendency to edit my drivel and notice that your quotation cites an early version of my last post.
That said, let me just note that the postwar ZW is roughly the equivalent of a modest arc-welder. [As I understand it, when Lionel sought to re-introduce the Postwar ZW back around 1990 they couldn't get approval from UL (or somebody important like that) to offer it as a "toy" transformer. So they had to go back to the drawing board and produce the modern two-piece electronic ZW and all the other electronic stuff.]
It is in this context that I recommend using extreme caution when using, repairing or modifying any post-war ZW.
My approach to TVS diodes, to try to protect my very few modern locos/tenders, was to begin by putting a TVS diode between AU, BU, CU and DU, for a total of four. I didn't solder them or modify them in any way except for actually shortening the leads on the diodes, bending them around each output posts, and tightening the knurled-nuts down snugly. Later I added a couple of more around the layout, and have similarly employed them with a KW, 1033, 1044 and other transformers for my layout and that of my granddaughter. To date, I have not installed them inside any modern locomotive or tender, etc., mostly because I am older than dirt and don't see too well.
So far, I have not "blown" any modern electronic equipment associated with my toy trains and I can safely assert that no tigers are roaming my back yard either!
Beyond that I cannot and will not opine.
bfskinner I wouldn't do it! Connecting or jumping posts A, B, C, D with anything is so fraught with the potential for disaster I wouldn't do it with anything. You can't have too many but you can waste too much money, although the principal cost to obtain several TVS diodes is the shipping.
I wouldn't do it! Connecting or jumping posts A, B, C, D with anything is so fraught with the potential for disaster I wouldn't do it with anything. You can't have too many but you can waste too much money, although the principal cost to obtain several TVS diodes is the shipping.
Thanks again for all the info, greatly appreciated. Forgive me I think I misled you in my post. My understanding was to take a TVS diode and connect it to the A with one end and the other to the U on the ZW and so on with B,C, and D, four total on the back of the transformer? If I'm correct in that method, can I take a single TVS and solder two insulated connectors on each end so I can just slip it over the post and tighten the main bus wire or whatever I have going to the corresponding post on top of the connector?
I too have mostly postwar but darn it, I cant help myself sometimes with all the bells and whistles of the newer, modern stuff. I just wanted to stay simple but read alot on here and freak myself out with all the tech stuff and want to do it right while learning as much as possible. I'm using 14 guage wire for the main loop and 16 for the switches, so I think I'm ok there. Unfortunately like I said the new stuff pulls me in and I want to protect it since I am using an older power supply. Again thanks for taking the time to respond.
Happy New Year!
I absolutely would not do it! Connecting posts A, B, C, D to each other in any combination with anything is so fraught with the potential for disaster I wouldn't do it on a double-dog-dare.
You can't have too many TVS diodes but you can waste too much money, although the principal cost to obtain several TVS diodes is the shipping charge.
I generally have one each on throttle AU and DU, and I'd put them on BU and CU if I had any electronic devices on my table-top. Then I put one on the primary lock-on and perhaps another one or two across the inputs of any electronic accessory; but I run mostly postwar and only have a few electronic devices. I keep a few spares handy because typically they don't fail "catastrophically" so it's hard to know for certain whether one is still good. That's why I set up multiple units with easy swap-out capability. (You may have noticed that some 115 volt surge suppressors for TV and computer use have an indicator light that is supposed to show when the device has sacrificed itself.)
Please understand that I am not an "expert". Bob "lionelsoni" Nelson is, and there are a few others on the forum. I just beat the drum occasionally.
The "experts in stores are frequently better described as "clerks," and a lot of the old pre- and post-war geezers like me don't seem to understand that electronic equipment needs additional protection over the earlier non-electronic devices. I'll wager that you never felt the need to plug an old 1950's Emerson fan into a surge-supressor; but your computer, TV and stereo system are different birds altogether.
Also a lot of folks seem to fail to understand how harmful voltage spikes can be, or the magnitude of such events. Consider how many times you have walked across a carpet, usually in the dry air of winter, and zapped yourself when you touched a doorknob. In the dark, you may even have seen the spark. The current is relatively small, but the voltage could be in the hundreds of thousands. Sorting certain fabrics just out of the dryer can produce the same effect. We aren't talking about 1.5 to 9 volt battery voltage.
Many people still believe that commonly-available high-speed fuses are helpful in this area. As a rule they are not. Certainly a high-speed instrument fuse is faster that the old thermal circuit breaker on a post-war ZW, for example. But that circuit breaker, whose response-time was measured in seconds, was designed to protect the transformer and associated wiring from high current, not voltage spikes which essentially occur at the speed of light. One-tenth of a second, for example, is not fast; indeed it is an eternity in electronic terms.
Finally, a lot of modern manufacturers do incorporate voltage-spike protection into their devices, but the main concern here is powering modern electronic devices with older-generation purely electrical ones.
Post Script: the person who advised the initiator of this thread to fuse his post-war ZW at 5 amps may have been taking into account the proposed use of relatively thin wires. For safe current-handling, the transformer-to-track wiring must be able to carry safely the maximum current that the transformer can put out. Otherwise the wires can heat up, the insulation melt, and the whole house go up in flames. (So the advice was not necessarily all bad -- it simply was not useful on the subject of voltage-spike protection.) Again, Bob "lionelsoni" Nelson has written extensively on the subject of wire-size too. (Evidently size matters.)
Happy and safe New Year, everybody.
BF,
I appreciate the reply I just want to be certain. When you talk about across the transformer, can I solder two "connectors" onto the ends and attatch to post A,B,C and D and the other end to the commons on a ZW? Also I should pick convenient locations throughout the loop and solder one end to the center and one to the ground rail? By what your saying you cant have too many? I'm not concerned with inside the locomotives so much because my trains don't travel anywhere for now, just want the layout up to snuff. Lastly why don't the "experts" push this? Sounds important.
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