Scale Locomotive from 1939 World's Fair - Need help with ID

[beachmlb]

My grandfather gave me a scale locomotive (and tender) that was used in the model train display at the 1904 World's Fair in St. Louis.  It has no markings on it, except for the 3939 number.  I have no idea who the manufacturer was.  Does anybody has any suggestions on how to find out more about this locomotive and perhaps how to validate it?  Thanks for your help.

[Semper Vaporo]

It would help a lot to describe the loco.

What is the wheel arrangement?  (leading wheels, drive wheels, tralling wheels, as in: 0-6-0, 4-4-0, 4-6-2, 4-8-4, etc.) 

What color is the engine? basic black, or red, or green, or blue -- dark or light color,  Is the smoke box (front of the boiler) a different color than the rest of the boiler?  Does the cab look like wood or metal (regardless of what it is actually made of)?

How many wheels/axles under the tender?

What scale is it? (HO, O, #1, #2, etc.).  If you don't know that, then measure the distance across the outside of the flanges of the wheels [where the wheels and rails touch] (that will tell people the scale). 

A photo of the engine would help immensly, but include something of standard size (a ruler?) in the image to help people determine the physical size of the engine.

It could be a one-off model made specifically for the World's Fair.

 

[beachmlb]

The locomotive is black and the wheel arrangement is 4-6-6-4.  The loco is 19" long and the distance across the wheels = 1.5".  The tender is also black and is 6-6.  The tender says Union Pacific.

Every piece is metal and the weight of this thing indicates that.  It is HEAVY.

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B23RY7NLNbxKTFNLazY1RllIZzA

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B23RY7NLNbxKSmJYWkdhSER3dFU

[Semper Vaporo]

The links don't work too good!  Copying and pasting the link into a new window causes an error unless I delete the ":600:0" from the end... but then the image shows up for a split second and is replaced by an error box that says the error is being reported to google and they will do something about it (ha! maybe).

BUT!  if I refresh the page and immediately move the mouse to the right edge and rapidly click the Right mouse button I can get a Context menu to open, which pauses the display to keep the image on screen... (sneaky ain't I!).  (With the mouse arrow on the right side, the Context menu appears to the right of it and not over the image I want to see.  I could also select in the Context menu to save the image to my PC, if I wanted to.)

I see what I would call a Lionel "O" gauge engine sitting on typical Lionel 3-rail tinplate track.

I did some quick Google searches for Lionel trains and American Flyer (another possible manufacturer) history and find the Lionel started in 1901 and American Flyer started about 1907, so I am guessing it is a Lionel train.  There should be a small metal plate riveted to the bottom of the motor block at one end giving the manufacturer name (and MAYBE a date of manufacture or serial number).

BUT!

Now we come to a problem... the earliest date that I can find for a 4-6-6-4 is 1936... Union Pacific engines 3900 to 3914 and 3915 to 3939 with the 3939 as the last of the 2nd batch built in 1937.

So, maybe it was the 1939 World's Fair???

 

 

[Semper Vaporo]

ACK!  Where'd your response go?  You must have deleted it.  And I didn't save any of the links or images.

[tomikawaTT]

Strictly as an aside, in 1904 the only Mallet articulated in the US was the B&O 0-6-6-0 known as, "Old Maude."  If the model has a 4-wheel trailing truck that places it after WWI.

Chuck

[beachmlb]

I didn't delete my post, I modified the links to the pictures.  They should work now :)

You are correct.  I made a phone call to my dad and discovered that I did have the World's Fair wrong.  It was 1939 New York (not sure where I got 1904 St. Louis from).

If identification requires some surgery, I might need more help.  Would a picture of the underside of the locomotive be helpful?

[jeffrey-wimberly]

beachmlb

You are correct.  I made a phone call to my dad and discovered that I did have the World's Fair wrong.  It was 1939 New York (not sure where I got 1904 St. Louis from).

I thought so. It looks kind of like a Challenger to me. UP started using them in 1936.

I fixed your links so they are now clickable.

[Semper Vaporo]

I still get the momentary display of the image and then it goes away and a message box appears that reads:

-------------------------------------------

Google Docs error

This error has been reported to Google and we'll look into it as soon as possible.

Please try one of these interim solutions:

•Reload this page.

•Download the document by right-clicking on it in the main document list and selecting "Export."

To discuss this or other issues, visit the Google Docs Help Forum. To see the list of known problems, check the Google Docs Known Issues page.

-------------------------------------------

and has a "Reload" button that just makes it do the same thing.    The "Help Forum" and "Known Issues" words are links, but I did not follow them to see if they are any help.

The only way to right click on the image so it can be saved is to catch it before the message box shows up as the image goes completely away when it happens.

 

Some research on the 1939 World's Fair might give some insight into whether it was a display of THIS engine as a model/toy or whether this is a model of a real engine that had been displayed at the Fair.

 

 

 

[Semper Vaporo]

Found a web site devoted to the 1939 World's Fair...

http://www.1939nyworldsfair.com

and words that there was an "O" scale layout of trains ("Railroads at work") but in the brochure

http://www.1939nyworldsfair.com/worlds_fair/wf_tour/Zone-6/railroads_at_work.htm

I don't see Union Pacific as being a sponsor of the display.  None of the photos are good enough to see if a U.P. articulated was on the layout, but with 60 engines on the layout, I guess one might have been there.

The other areas of that site do show a couple of articulated engines (1:1 real ones) but none are U.P. either.

 

[DSchmitt]

I did a little Googleing and eventually found this listed on an auction site:

"Lobaugh UP 4-6-6-4 Challenger Loco & Incomplete Tender, Dec. as #3939"

Searching  for "Lobaugh models" found:

http://www.binnsroad.co.uk/railways/lobaugh/index.html   UP Challenger is cataloged in both 1939 and 1940. Catalog scans difficult to read (small, low resolution)

 Add Jan 1939 Model Railroader:

lobaugh by Donald Schmitt, on Flickr

 

The 1939 Lobaugh catalog is currenty listed by one seller on Amazon.com

Worlds Fair layout:

The Oct 1939 Model Railroader has an article about the operatimg layout (2-rail) of the California-Nevada Railroad Historical Society at the 1939 San Francisco Worlds Fair.  Rolin Lobaugh supplied motive power and rolling stock including  "a 4-6-6-4 UP articulated locomotive".

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Articles on the New York Fair layouts (there were 2 large layouts) are in the March & April 1939 Model Railroader. 

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Information on prototype locomotive:

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/challenger/?page=up

 

 

 

[samfp1943]

http://modeltrainjournal.musthavecd.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12615  This link is to a Forum Discussion of Lobaugh models...apparently the currently available model is a "Berkshire" by Lobaugh. There appear to be Lobauhg products for sale on Amazon and e-bay at this time. (?)  My guess that your "Challenger 3939" is possibly an unusual model and hard to find.  You might try some of the guys on this other Forum for information on Lobaugh.  It is the " Model Train Journal.com Forum...  Hope this helps.

P.S. If you increase the size of the print on the Catalog page it says the Lobaugh Challenger was price at $257.00 with the two trail version you'd add $10.00 to that price. A pretty healthy price for a model train in 1939.

[Curmudgeon]

"This link is to a Forum Discussion of Lobaugh models...apparently the currently available model is a "Berkshire" by Lobaugh. There appear to be Lobauhg products for sale on Amazon and e-bay at this time. (?) My guess that your "Challenger 3939" is possibly an unusual model and hard to find. You might try some of the guys on this other Forum for information on Lobaugh."

You're serious?

Al Ellis bought the line after WWII, Stevenson has some production of bits up until fairly recently....but calling Rollin Lobaugh up and ordering a Berk......

Can you give me a phone number and ordering information?

[rockislandnut]

OK here are the two photos the OP was trying to post. Up to you people as I personally do not know any info on the engine.

 

[DSchmitt]

OP photos - brightness adjusted so more detail can be seen.  Engine is displayed on 3-rail track, but is it a 3-rail or 2-rail model. 

OPImage1 (1) by Donald Schmitt, on Flickr

OPImage2 by Donald Schmitt, on Flickr

 

Lobaugh Challenger -From  Photobucket - Photo by Bob Jones

LOB3925 by Donald Schmitt, on Flickr

Pseudo Lobaugh Challenger - by Bob Jones - Photos posted on Model Train Journal Forum - Lobaugh parts and scratch. - scale length tender made from wood does not have correct trucks

 

 loopy_008 by Donald Schmitt, on Flickr

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The San Francisco Fair layout was 2-rail and a Lobaugh Challenger was run on it. . 

I believe that the New York Fair layout in the April '39 issue of MR was 3-rail. There is no reference to locomotive types.    

The layout in the May isssue refers to a passenger train pulled by a streamlined loco, two freight trains pulled by 4-8-4's, a construction train pulled by Moguls, and a Shay in a rock quarry. The Shay was constructed by Walthers. There is a photo of it  on scale track with an outside 3rd rail.  However the photo was probably  taken in Walthers shop, not on the layout.