Lionel 614 Alaska worn out?

[cwburfle]

If pushing up on the bearing plate fixes the problem, then the motor probably can be fixed by replacing the bearing plate.
I know you already purchased a new motor truck, but I suggest you save the old one.
Replacement bearing plates are available, and can be installed without breaking down the truck.
It can be a bit trickey, but they snap in.

[Mark202]

Rob, you were correct. That was a piece of dirt that looked like a mark from the bottom of the armature. With help from both of your comments I have found the problem (the key was the teeth being too far back). In the picture showing the worm gear if you look above the dirt spot the plastic tab that held in the bearing plate is gone (1 of the 4), and the plate can be pushed up from below. If I put the armature in, and then push up on the bearing plate it engages. The tab must have broken at some point, and then as the bearing plate angle changed it wore the teeth. This truck has never been apart from what I can tell, and I think the breaking of the tab did it in some time ago.

It was difficult to see that the little tab was broken, but pushing on that corner shows it has no support there.

Thanks for all of your help. I have a new power truck from a 614 coming from eBay that was up last week. I hope that gets it running.

[cwburfle]

This is going to sound way out there, but I'd like to see more pictures of the truck, perhaps removed from the chassis.
I guess it could be the angle of the picture, but  teeth seem to be too far back from the lower bearing. I am wondering whether someone previously replaced the gear and used the wrong one.
If so, it would be a most rare and unusual problem.

I just don't see enough wear on those teeth.

I'd look for marks to see whether the gearbox was ever seperated from the top plate, or the truck sides from the top plate.

IMHO, replacing that gear is not a casual project. I think it is among the most difficult repairs one can do to those trucks.
If the shell is decent, I suggest looking for another truck. SInce there is some rust on the trame, and the brake is missing, Id use any that fit.

[ADCX Rob]

I only see what seems to be a bit of dirt or grease.

I'm pretty sure you could not get the brush plate on straight, let alone allowing enough room for the armature to spin in the field laminations, if you miss the lower armature bearing.

[Curmudgeon]

As stated earlier, the worm gear does show wear, but it is not fully dished out. To have zero contact with that gear is not a gear issue. He missed the hole in the bottom cover. You can see the mark of the end of the armature about 8:00 from the actual bearing hole in the photo.

Of course, we're going by 2 photos, but if he tries the assembly as stated earlier, then we will know.

Replace the ignition coil. It's always the coil.

[ADCX Rob]

The answer is in the bottom pic.  The worm wheel teeth are severely worn...   away from the worm gear on the armature shaft.  It is softer metal than the worm.  The bearing plate looks fine.

The part you need is the 2328-22 worm gear / worm wheel, or the 600-119 which includes the 2328-22 and the shaft.  That will put you back in operation.

[Curmudgeon]

In the photo of the inside of the truck, showing the bearing plate on the bottom. Look to the left of the bearing hole...you will see a mark, like the end of the armature rested there.

I always remove the brush cover, mount the field, insert the armature, ensure engagement, THEN put the cover on the top.

Try it.

[cwburfle]

Let's try these links to your photos:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/88311188@N05/8070558003/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/88311188@N05/8070551710/in/photostream/

 

[Mark202]

I can't figure out how to get the photos to show.

I am sure I am getting the bottom of the armature shaft into the socket. It spins really smoothly, and if I give it power it goes really well. I used a flashlight when assembling it and could see it go into the socket as well. It just doesn't contact the worm gear at all.The rest of the locomotive is well used, but all there and in ok shape.

[cwburfle]

Your link is not structured correctly. It does not show up in the post. I did see it when I opened the reply window, and was able to take a peak.
From what I see, you do have the correct motor truck. The big rivet holding the coupler is a give-away.
The worm wheel (gear) shown in the second photograph does look worn, but it doesn't look like its bad enough for a loss of engagement with the worm.

When you are installing the armature, are you certain that you are getting the pin at the bottom into the socket that is right next to the gear.

How is the condition on the rest of the locomotive?

[Mark202]

You are correct about the type of motor. Mine matches your description exactly. I do now think the worm gear is worn, but taking apart this motor (as you described earlier) doesn't seem easy at all. Here are two pictures (my first time posting any) that may help:

[cwburfle]

The 614 has a one piece motor truck with a double wound field.

According to the Lionel service manual, the 614 was made in 1959. But the sample motor that I have has the pre-1959 armature bearing setup, where the dust plate at the bottom of the motor also serves as the lower armature bearing.
My sample has single axle magnetraction.
It has two mounting posts.
These posts insert into slots cut into the locomotive's sheel metal frame. They are held in place with a set of washers, springs, and tinnerman's clips.

Does the armature have a little tip that engages the bearing that is cast into the dustplate?

If the armature's worm is not engaging the worm gear, there should be serious visible wear.

It sounds like photographs of the motor truck are in order.

[TRAINCAT]

I am thinking you may not have the right motor or truck assy. The changed the motor in 1950.

Roger

[cwburfle]

It is unlikely that the worm is worn. The worm gear can be replaced.
There are two ways to take the truck apart to get to the worm.
The sideframes can be removed.
Or the gearbox can be detached from the top plate.

Of the two techniques, removing the sideframes is probably the way to go.

Typically, removing the gearbox requires that the gearbox stakes be carefully filed to allow the gearbox to be pried away from the motor plate without bending anything. Later, reassembling the motor can be challanging because accidentially bending any of the parts will cause a misalignment between the worm and gear, causing poor running.

If you cab is OK, you could also keep your eye out for an entire replacement motor. Postwar switcher motors turn up fairly often, and will fit. However, to be correct, the 614 has a unique motor, the difference being how the coupler is attached. I believe it is the only motor with the coupler riveted in place.
If you go for a replacement motor, make certain it has the correct mount. I don't recall the sytle used on the 614, but some motors have two posts, others have one post and a hook to hold it on the frame.

[Mark202]

At a recent estate sale I bought a 1959 #1611 Alaskan freight set. The NW2 switcher engine shell was off and the engine was really dirty, as was the entire set. I cleaned it all up and it looks pretty nice, but found that the armature worm doesn't touch the worm gear at all on the axle. The motor runs fine, but of course it doesn't move since the gears don't mesh at all. Everything is in place with nothing broken, so is it possible that it was used so much that the gears are totally worn? That is my guess based on the how the engine looked before cleaning. Can this be repaired? Is is likely both gears are worn, the worm on the armature and the worm drive gear? This power truck looks like it is not meant to be taken apart.

Mark

P.S. Of course the engine was missing the yellow plastic brake unit.