Hi, I am in the middle of my first restoration, it is a 1949 Lionel 671 Turbine. It has fought me every step of the way.
I pressed off the wheels to install new axle bushings, the old ones were so worn the wheel backs rubbed the chassis, I got new bushings from the train tender. The new bushings were the same length as the hole is deep in the frame so when I installed them I left about 1/8" sticking out to set the end play of the axles.
I figured when I pressed the wheels on it would press in the axel bushing to the correct depth.
I still have about 1/32" play on each side ( about 1/16" total) between the wheel back and the new bushings, (except the front axle with the smoke unit is slightly looser). Is this normal? Everything rolls smooth and the side rods work great.
I'm really scared to remove the wheels again to install washers as shims, I used loctite to hold the wheels to the axels, I really dont have the money to buy all new wheels & axles to start all over.
How precise were these engines when they were new? I'm used to rebuilding car engines where everything is supposed to fit to the thousanths of an inch. am I driving myself crazy over nothing?
It should be fine with that amount of end play. There needs to be some side to side play to prevent binding through turns.
Keep an eye on the wheels though. Turbines from 1949 onward use sintered iron wheels. Lionel's service manual stated that these wheels shouldn't be reused since they can loosen after being reinstalled. I have experienced that with a basket case 2037. The only fix was new old stock wheels unfortunately.
When you press wheels back onto axles, the first thing to concern you is the correct gauging of the wheels. Usually the wheels get pressed onto the axles until the end of the axle is flush with the outside of the axle hole in the wheels. This will give the proper gauge and side play of the wheelset.
It sounds like the bushings should be set properly. You do not want more play than is needed for the wheels to turn without binding. My 681 has more play in the front wheelset also.
I hope you replaced the worm wheel on the axle while you had it apart!
Our trains, like anything else, have tighter tolerances where needed, and looser tolerances where it is not needed. Close tolerance is not needed everywhere, as it is expensive and un-necessary.
If your loco runs satisfactorily, sit back and relax, and enjoy a job well done.
By the way, I had to make a custom bearing for my 681, as the frame hole was too worn for a standard replacement.
Larry
I might be OK, the used wheels fit the splines very tight, I'm hoping they stay on tight,
I did put on a new worm wheel, my concern is that the front axle was slightly looser than
the other axles, I guess I can run it for awhile and see if the front bushings are pushing back
into the holes too far......worst case I had it apart once I guess I could do it all again
if I had to , I just wanted to correct this before I reinstalled all the other parts.
Thanks for the replys - Jason
Well I think I have a fix for it, This engine was cosmetically very nice but it must have had a lot of run time with little to no oil added to it ever in its life.
The original style 671 bushings were moving back into the frame hole allowing a bigger gap between the bushing & wheel back, more than I liked.
I have a 681 chassis for parts and I noticed the axle bushings have a shoulder on them to prevent the wheels from rubbing....but the outter dia. of the bushing is too small for the 671 frame.
Here is what I did, a got a length of K&S 5/16" brass tube, I belive it has a wall thickness of .016". I measured & cut small lengths with a tubing cutter to press into the frame that were slightly shy of being flush with the side of the frame, the 681 bushings fit snug into the brass spacers ( 2 were slightly loose but a tap on the bottom side of the frame tightened them up) a plus is that they will conduct electricity .
The 681 has metal plates for the magnatraction along the sides of the frame so......after checking with a dial calipers I might have to shave a few thousandts off the sides of the shoulders to get the wheel gauge correct, I'm thinking I can use some fine emery cloth and an old center wheel & axel to make a tool (like lapping the valves in a small engine) to bring the bushings to the correct size.
I'd rather have to fit over size bushings to the correct size than have a sloppy fit on the worm wheel axle.
Hopefully there is one more use of the wheels in this engine, the lock tite made it very hard to get the wheels off again, I might be able to shrink the inner dia of the wheel hole some with a tappered punch.
Wish me luck, I'm having a hard time finding a full set of wheels for this engine. Also it would be nice if some one made oversize bushing for this engine, not sure what the demand would be to warrant producing them but it might save a few project engines from the junk pile.
I'll post back my results once its reassembled and running.
-Jason
The 681 and the 671 use DIFFERENT wheels and axles. 671 wheels will not press on 681 axles. This is due to the 681 being magnatraction and uses stainless axles. I advise against all the modifying you are doing and just get the right parts. If you can't find the parts you just are not looking in the right places. Try Olsens' or call Chuck Sartor at Mizells trains in Denver. Jeff Kane at the www.TrainTender.com has them too. His need fitting so you can size them.
Roger
If you used brass tubing as a sleeve for the 681 bushings to make them a tighter fit, then you can possibly do the same thing with the original bushings if they are loose in the frame.
It would be impossible to produce oversize bushings for engines, as the oversize condition of the frame holes would be unknown. The frame holes could be worn out of round also, and the frame itself would have to be drilled and reamed for a new bushing. The bushing would need to be custom made for that application. Machine shop skills and equipment are needed for this depth of a repair.
I know the 681 uses stanless axles I used all 671 parts except I used a set of 681 bushings to custom make a set of bushings for this frame, I had ordered 3 sets of 671 bushings from 3 places and none fit correctly, I think this frame might have been dropped at some time. The stock bushings would not stay in place, allowing the side to side play of the axles to get worse over a short period of time, instead of using washers or clips on the axles to band aid the problem, the stock bushings will not fit with the brass tube unless the frame holes are enlarged.
Basically I custom made bushings with a built in shoulder to keep the axle centered, and it is all made of one piece of bronze so I dont have issues with lube or premature wear. The brass tube was only to correct the worn frame hole issue.
This engine is being built from other peoples parts box throw aways, I had a nice shell, found a good motor & e unit, bought 3 used frames the other 2 had issues with cracks or stripped holes, so I thought this one would be OK, I was wrong. I got sick of looking for a good frame and wasting money so I decided to fix what I have.
No nice original engines were harmed in my first restoration attempt. I'm very mechanically inclined, if i dont have the correct tool I'll buy it or make it. I've restored full size cars, fly model airplanes, raced slot cars, rebuilt N scale trains, and restored other old toys. I know better than to practice on a nice old postwar engine.
The hardest part of this whole project is getting good quality replacement parts and reliable consistant information. As a new guy to Postwar trains, its frustrating to deal with. I have met alot of nice helpful people and alot more who treat you like an idiot cause your younger than them, while keeping 50 year old repair tips to themselves.
I still have not found what the correct side clearance is when these engines were new. Guess I'll have to spend big bucks on the repair books to find out what the lionel books dont tell you.
-Thanks for the input guys, Jason
The hardest part of this whole project is getting good quality replacement parts and reliable consistant information.
The quality of replacement parts for Lionel trains is getting worse and worse.
Being that you have a strong background in repairs, I am certain that you compared the replacement bearings to the ones you removed, and found them to be generally the same. I took a look in the Lionel service manual, and found that they only listed one bearing for all the 1946-1949 turbines, which was #671-20, and has no shoulder.The 1952 version of the 671(RR) turbine used bearing #671-248, which has a shoulder.The 681 used axle bearing #681-11.I don't know the difference between a 671-248 bearing and the 681 bearing.
For what it is worth, I had a 671 frame (1946) without wheels in my parts drawer, and used a depth micrometer to check the distance that the bearings protruded.I did not get a consistent measurement. It could be due to uneven wear, or due to the fact that the sides of the frame aren't flat, but I got numbers ranging from .004 to .018.
The hubs on the back of my used, original nickle rimmed tubine wheels are raised slightly, which would provide some clearance.
Finally, I get .059 as a rough measurement of the flange on a 671-248 bearing.
I found some 681-11 bearings in my misc bearing drawer.
Using the go, no go method I found that a #11 drill bit (.191) will fit tightly in both the 671-248 and 681 -11 bearings. a #10 drill bit will not (.193)
According to my Micrometer, the OD on the 681-11 is .282, and the OD on the 671-248 is .283,
The length of the 681-11 bearing varies. One measured .300, another measured .291
The length of the 671-248 bearing also varies. One measured .284, another measured .286.
Finally, the thickness of the flange varied.
I've had these bearing a long time, and purchased them from an even longer time parts dealer. I am fairly certain they came from the Lionel factory.
Thanks for the reply and the work of taking the measurements, I might have needed 671-248 bearings but honestly I think this engine had enough problems that custom bearings were needed. I did not expect this project to be this tough. I even bought 2 other chassis to avoid pulling the wheels off the engine, but I'm stuck with finishing with what I have for now.
I cant see how the worm gear can be set up properly with the axle & gear flopping arround in the chassis......I had thought about using ball bearing roller bushings and making the thing bullet proof but all the sizes I found were metric and would not work for me.
What started out as an engine advertised as a 671 turned out to be a 681 or 671rr with a cracked & broken chassis, I bought another 671 chassis that was stated as good condition only to find a bad worm wheel, buying another 671 chassis had good wheels & bushings, but stripped screw holes and was warped. I have $65 into buying replacement chassis parts for a $50 engine I thought needed a repaint and some motor brushes, you can see why I am frustrated enugh to make my own parts.
I would have prefered this be a 100% original lionel parts restoration with cloth wires and all, but this one simply had too many hidden flaws in the used to go together as 100% original.
If a better used chassis comes along cheap I might switch it out later.
No more train show "bargains" for me, I'll save up for a better engine next time...or wait till I have more experiance with "good used" engines. I might renumber this one "1313" LOL!
After searching several photos on line I think I know what was wrong with my engine, The drivers I have look like the 2 middle ones at the bottom of this photo
http://www.ttender.com/partphotos/index.html
I belive the good chassis I have is from a 1949 671
I wonder if someone installed the wrong wheels on my chassis at some point, none of the wheels I have have a hub or shoulder on the back side like I have seen in some other photos, all the wheels I have had were totaly flat on back like a 681 - That would expalin why I had such a big side to side clearance. Most of the photos I saw had the bushings more or less flush with the frame and the wheels had a shoulder or hub to provide the clearance.
I did not modify my good 671 chassis - only the 681 bushings I had on hand - so if I ever find the correct shouldered drivers for a 671, I can always put it back to original with 671-20 bushings.
Does anyone have a good time line reference of which type of drivers were used on which chassis? and when & what the changes were? And also which replcement drivers are currently available and where to purchase them. I'm willing to start over with fresh wheels & axles at this point if they are available. If not my home made bushings will make this thing work and I'll put it back together.
....I'm totally confused at this point. Thanks for letting me think out loud & vent on this one.-Jason
Are your wheels sintered iron with inserts pressed into the wheels for the side rods?
There are a lot of variations on the wheels that were used on turbines. One of the price guides goes into detail as to which wheels were used when :)If I figure out which edition had the information, I will post the name. Keep in mind, that the information presented in these price guides are largely opinions, and are not always 100 percent. accurate. Even the original Lionel factory service manuals contain some errors.
Yes the wheels are sintered Iron with the pressed in insert for the side rods, The wheels have the raised out counter weight on the face, smooth flat backs, no shoulder.
(The wheels from the 681 chassis I have are the same size except the counter weight on the face is recessed The other 671 parts chassis had no wheels at all.
If it helps I.D. the engine - the motor has the 671rr or 681 style brush plate the style without the brush tubes so that you can see the brushes & springs . It has a Lead weight over the smoke lever, E unit with the lever through the body, the body was repainted all black so I have no idea what it was originally...I was thinking of getting the david doyle post war ID book anyway .....is it worth the $50?
From what I read so far it appeared to be a 1949 671 with maybee a later motor or brush plate in it.
Maybee it is a Frankenstein Turbine project some one else put together awhile back and wore out.
Looking for any info on these engines to determine exactly what I have before I stick the wheels back on again.
I would not rely on Doyle's book. Search the forum for more information.
Bob Nelson
I looked through my old price guides, and found an article on turbines. IMHO, there was not enough detail to determine exact wheel types. The 1949 version of the turbine may have come with sintered iron wheels with side rod inserts, but that is not clear to me. The Lionel service manual does show them in the 3-50 (march 1950) revision of the service manual pages for the 671. The part number of the end wheel is 671-241, and the center wheel part number is 671-240.
I don't think I've ever seen a plain 671 chassis with sintered iron wheels. The 671RR chassis are easily identified because they have an opening between two of the drive wheels where the magnet would have gone.
I have never seen Lionel factory explosion diagrams for the 671RR, 681, or 682. I don't think they exist. There were factory parts lists.
The 671RR parts list indicates that the wheels are: 681-23 (center) and 681-24 (end).The 681 uses these wheels.The 682 parts list indicates that its wheels are 681-23 (center) and 682-11 (end).
I am not positive, because I have not looked at one in quite some time, but I think the 682 actually uses two 682-11 wheels in the front (for the eccentric crank) and two 681-24 wheels in the back. But I'd have to check.
Thanks again for the info, after having no luck searching for different bushings & wheels for this engine I guess I'll have to stick with my original idea and use the custom bushings I made and existing wheels.
Some day i hope to find a better chassis for it .
Thanks - Jason
Well I actually finished this project, and I could not be more proud of how smooth it runs, The spacers on the axle bushings worked well, I have NO slop or play in the bushings or gears. Here is some photos of my first Lionel restoration.
I Purchased a "671" that turned out to be a 681 with a bent & stripped chassis, So I bought a 1949 671 chassis that ended up needing axle bushings & worm wheel gear. I made custom spacers to hold the new 671 replacement bushings tight in the 671 frame, the frame holes were worn slightly too big to hold the new bushings tight, they would push away from the wheel backs and loosen the side to side wheel clearance. I used the good 681 motor, e-unit and small parts from the original engine.
I then found out the original 671/681? boiler shell was full of cracks & damage when I stripped it so.....I found a better 671 shell for sale, if it was not already painted & numbered I was going to reletter this engine "1313" for all the trouble it gave me, at least i found a nice original tender for a good price.
Boiler shell paint is Rustoleum professional flat black, it matched the original tender shell perfectly.
It might not be 100% TCA lionel correct or perfect but I feel I learned alot about Lionel postwar trains and I saved a bunch of "junk parts" to create 1 good smooth running locomotive. In the end it was worth it.
-Jason Next time I'll buy a better Engine to start with LOL!
Keep in mind that the 671 wheels and 681 wheels are NOT the same. Both have different hole diameters for the axle too. If you try to press a 671(no rims) wheel onto a 681 axle you will break the wheel. I took some wheels I thought were 681 wheels to a repair shop to put on my 681 chassis and he broke them.
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