I was wrong to ask you to add up all the lamp currents, since only one is lit at a time in each controller. I should have said, "add up the currents drawn by all the lamps in the turnouts and half the lamps in the controllers."
But, in any case, I think that your number is way too high. The stock lamps for the 022 are 1445 in the turnout and 432 in the controller. These draw respectively 250 milliamperes and 150 milliamperes, or a total of 400 milliamperes per turnout. Six such turnouts should draw therefore 2.4 amperes.
Your number (allowing for my error by multiplying it by 2/3), would imply 2 amperes per turnout, or a whopping 12 amperes for 6 of them. Please go back and check the part numbers of the lamps.
Taking my estimate above of 2.4 amperes, you could get by with wire as small as 24 AWG, but it would have to be protected at 2.5 amperes. You will probably want to use something bigger, that can be protected by your transformer's circuit breaker.
Bob Nelson
lionelsoni Add up the currents drawn by all the lamps, including those in the controllers. (If you want to post the lamp types and quantities, I can look up those currents for you.) Use the following table to select a wire gauge with an ampacity at least as great as the total lamp current load. Then protect that wire with a fuse or circuit breaker rated at least as great as the total lamp current, but not more than the wire ampacity. AWG Ampacity 14 15 16 10 18 7 20 5 lionelsoni Add up the currents drawn by all the lamps, including those in the controllers. (If you want to post the lamp types and quantities, I can look up those currents for you.) Use the following table to select a wire gauge with an ampacity at least as great as the total lamp current load. Then protect that wire with a fuse or circuit breaker rated at least as great as the total lamp current, but not more than the wire ampacity. AWG Ampacity 14 15 16 10 18 7 20 5 MR. NELSON, ALL OF THE WATTAGE ADDED UP BETWEEN THE LIGHTS ON THE SWITCHES AND THE LIGHTS ON THE SWITCH CONTROLLERS COMES TO 216 WATTS. THEY ARE ALL 18 VOLT LAMPS. 12 LAMPS ALL TOGETHER AT 18 VOLTS EACH. HOPE THIS HELPS. THANKS, AL
Add up the currents drawn by all the lamps, including those in the controllers. (If you want to post the lamp types and quantities, I can look up those currents for you.)
Use the following table to select a wire gauge with an ampacity at least as great as the total lamp current load. Then protect that wire with a fuse or circuit breaker rated at least as great as the total lamp current, but not more than the wire ampacity.
AWG Ampacity 14 15 16 10 18 7 20 5 lionelsoni Add up the currents drawn by all the lamps, including those in the controllers. (If you want to post the lamp types and quantities, I can look up those currents for you.) Use the following table to select a wire gauge with an ampacity at least as great as the total lamp current load. Then protect that wire with a fuse or circuit breaker rated at least as great as the total lamp current, but not more than the wire ampacity. AWG Ampacity 14 15 16 10 18 7 20 5 MR. NELSON, ALL OF THE WATTAGE ADDED UP BETWEEN THE LIGHTS ON THE SWITCHES AND THE LIGHTS ON THE SWITCH CONTROLLERS COMES TO 216 WATTS. THEY ARE ALL 18 VOLT LAMPS. 12 LAMPS ALL TOGETHER AT 18 VOLTS EACH. HOPE THIS HELPS. THANKS, AL
lionelsoni Add up the currents drawn by all the lamps, including those in the controllers. (If you want to post the lamp types and quantities, I can look up those currents for you.) Use the following table to select a wire gauge with an ampacity at least as great as the total lamp current load. Then protect that wire with a fuse or circuit breaker rated at least as great as the total lamp current, but not more than the wire ampacity. AWG Ampacity 14 15 16 10 18 7 20 5 MR. NELSON, ALL OF THE WATTAGE ADDED UP BETWEEN THE LIGHTS ON THE SWITCHES AND THE LIGHTS ON THE SWITCH CONTROLLERS COMES TO 216 WATTS. THEY ARE ALL 18 VOLT LAMPS. 12 LAMPS ALL TOGETHER AT 18 VOLTS EACH. HOPE THIS HELPS. THANKS, AL
AWG Ampacity 14 15 16 10 18 7 20 5
MR. NELSON, ALL OF THE WATTAGE ADDED UP BETWEEN THE LIGHTS ON THE SWITCHES AND THE LIGHTS ON THE SWITCH CONTROLLERS COMES TO 216 WATTS. THEY ARE ALL 18 VOLT LAMPS. 12 LAMPS ALL TOGETHER AT 18 VOLTS EACH. HOPE THIS HELPS. THANKS, AL
You can use a blue spade lug for the constant voltage plug on the switches. It works on the prewar and post war switches (genuine 022s or 721s or 711s) but not on the newer switches because the new switches have a slightly larger pin. The spade lugs can be connected in many different ways, and you can connect wire as large as 14 gauge. I make multiple connections with spade lugs so I can take things appart easily. The spade lugs are much cheaper than the Lionel plugs and tend to stay in place better.
mr. nelson, i have 2- 022's and 4 -711-072 switches. what would be the proper wire gauge to power these switches on a fixed voltage using fixed voltage plugs? they are about 15 feet away from the transformer. thanks for the info. i read this forum all the time. great job guys. al alias kw d-train
MTH Z4000. Seriously, isn't it easier to change the bulbs than buy a new transformer? Wiring the diode like suggested will also greatly reduce the power required.
Z
Thank you Larry, Bob, AR, servoguy for all your help/comments. They are all very helpful and I learned a lot. If I still want to accomplish what I want to do, it sounds like I need to get a KW or a ZW. If anyone knows of a transformer that might power the 28 switches and controls other than the ones I mentioned, please advise as I really rather not change any of the bulbs at this time.
Mike
If you run 18 V lamps on 20 volts, you will most likely melt the lanterns. My solution, because it is cheap, is to put a diode in series with the lamps which reduces the power enough that the lamps are cool enough to touch. Check my post "022/711 switch operating pblms" on this site. Use Google to find it. Radio Shack has a bag of diodes for about $3.50. They should work just fine.
You're running 18-volt lamps at 20 volts, which increases the current by a factor of (20 / 18) ^ .55 over the specified value of 400 milliamperes (150 at the turnout, 250 at the controller). So the power consumed is (20 / 18) ^ .55 * .4 * 28 * 20 = 237 watts. This is much more than that transformer should be called upon to put out. I think the circuit breaker should have tripped almost immediately.
Larry
Now for the results. The train works fine with the "B" and "U" on the Type A. Also with the "A" and "U" with too much power for the train. "C" and "U" does not have enough power to move train. No red light comes on the Type A. Bob might be on to something? The Type A reads 115 volts, 60 cycles and 90 watts. I have 28 turnouts with lamps and 28 controls with lamps. What do you think?
The lamps in your 28 turnouts draw about 400 millimaperes per turnout or 11.2 amperes together at 18 volts. I don't know the current rating of the type A; but you may well have exceeded it, even if the circuit breaker is okay.
You could try replacing the stock lamps in the turnouts with LED substitutes, and even remove lamps from turnouts if you have any whose lanterns cannot be seen, and from controllers.
OK, Mike, it sounds like you have the wiring correct now. We need to ascertain whether the "A" transformer is good, or possibly has a bad circuit breaker. Disconnect the ZW from the tracks, and disconnect the "A" transformer from the switches. Connect the 'B' and 'U' terminals from the "A" transformer to one loop of track and try to run trains. Make sure the ZW is unplugged. If the trains run, the "A" is good. If the red light comes on , the circuit breaker may be defective. Keep us posted.
Let me first take this time to thank all of you for taking the time and addressing my issue.. thank you.
My ZW hook up is the way it was from the start and all is ok with the trains. Removed the fixed voltage plug wire from the ZW and hooked the fixed voltage plug wire to "B" on the Type A transformer and ran a line from "U" on the Type A to a "U" on the ZW. The control handle on the Type A did power the switches but the red light on the Type A came on in about 30 seconds. I moved the wire from "B" to "A" on Type A and did get more power to the switches but again the Type A red light came on in about 30 seconds. I moved the wire from "A" to "C" on the Type A but did NOT get enough power to the switches and NO red light came on. We are getting close but something is in the way?
I take his statement, "I have a ZW running two completely separate trains", to mean that he has two separate loops, in which case he will have to have a wire to each loop's outside rails.
There is no reason to "phase" a transformer used to power turnouts. The supply used for the turnouts does not have to match the track in voltage, phase, frequency, nor waveform. I use DC for that myself. In fact, there is a very slight advantage to having the AC voltage that powers turnouts (or other accessories returned through the outside rails) out of phase with the track, to cancel some of the voltage drop in the outside rails.
Nor does it matter which terminal of the A transformer goes to the outside rails or ZW's U terminal if connections are being made to only two of the A transformer's terminals.
Mike,
What you did was short out both transformers together when you connected the ZW 'C' terminal to the 'B' terminal of the "A" transformer. Disconnect the wire completely from the 'C' terminal of the ZW and connect the wire to the fixed voltage plug of your switches. The other end should be connected to the 'B' terminal of the "A" transformer.
Reconnect the 'U' terminals from the ZW back the way you originally had them to the tracks. Connect a wire from the 'U' terminal of the "A" transformer to one of the 'U' terminals of the ZW. The ZW should operate the trains as before, and the control handle of your other transformer should power the switches.
Lots of red flags here. Are you attempting to use a Lionel type A transformer? That is a pre-war transformer and I recommend caution before trying to hook up this rather primitive 80 year old device. You should have your type A carefully inspected by a service station pro to certify it is still in operable condition. I believe the outer rail connection on that is C and the center rail is A. Ttry not to use it unless you are building a 1930 period layout.
The next issue is the way you should be using the ZW to control separate trains and circuits. The ZW VW, and KW are designed for a common outer rail layout with the U connection being a common return and feed to the outside rail. Remember although Lionel ZW, VW, and KWs all have U as the outer rail return many older Lionel transformers are not wired that way. If in doubt ask your friendly forum or check with Lionel.
Your layout should not have insulating fiber pins on the outer rail except where the O22 derail feature of the switches requires them. Thus you only need to run one wire from U to the track outer rail. You can also connect U to a bus wire or strip and that gives you a common return for lights and accessories anywhere on the layout so you do not have to run a bunch of wires back to the transformers(s).
Next, Ill discuss phasing. When you use multiple transformers they must be phased. In other words they need to have the same polarity when plugged into an ac outlet. To test for phasing take two transformers that are turned off and down and tie the U or outer rail connection together.
After connecting the outer rails together connect one of the center rail controls together such as the A connection on a ZW or KW. Plug in the transformers and SLOWLY increase the power no more than half way on one transformer. SLOWLY start to turn up the other A control. If the transformer starts to vibrate and feels like it's infernally hemorrhaging STOP. turn everything down. Unplug one of the transformers and turn the plug around and plug back in. Now try the test again. If you can crank up the controls about half way without any shorts your transformers are in-phase and you are ready to go. For safety sake you can also do this test with a light bulb connected between the A connections. If the bulb turns on the transformers are not in phase.
A KW is a better choice for what you are trying to do. It has a common U and the D connector gives you a nice 20v for your switches. You could also use the B or C of your ZW and manually crank up the voltage to around 18v.
Good Luck,
AR.
Connect the outside rails of both loops to any of the ZW's U terminals. Connect one terminal of the type-A transformer to any of the ZW's U terminals.
Connect one loop's center rail to the ZW's A terminal. Connect the other loop's center rail to the ZW's D terminal.
Connect the other terminal of the type-A transformer to the fixed-voltage plugs. Be sure you are using either the stock plugs, which disconnect the turnout from the track's center rail, or a substitute which is the right size to do the same thing.
Which two terminals you use from the type-A will determine the voltage that you get for the turnout motors and lantern lamps. It doesn't matter which of those two goes to the ZW's U and which to the fixed-voltage plugs.
I was able to make the connection over the weekend but it appears to be a problem on my end. Let me tell what I have and where I want to go. I have a ZW running two completely separate trains. One train is on the "A-U" with that U going to the outside rails for that train. The other train is on the "D-U' with that U going to the outside rails of that loop. The C is to my fixed voltage plugs on the switches and no hook up to the corresponding U since I are using the same transformer for turnouts and trains. I want to use the Type "A" transformer to power only the switches. What I did was take the wire from C from the ZW and hook it to the B on the Type "A" transformer. I took both corresponding U's (from the A and D on the ZW) and hooked it to the U on the Type "A" transformer. The red short light came on the Type "A" transformer. I also had no power to my trains from the ZW since the ZW has no U connection to operate the separate trains? Did I totally confuse you and is what I am trying to do possible?
Thank You
MIke
Thank you and will give this a try once weather cools a little as my trains are in a room that is warm during the summer months.
Hook the 'B' terminal of your Type "A" transformer to the fixed voltage plugs of your switches, and the 'U' terminal to the outside rail of your layout. This will give you about 6-16 volts variable voltage to adjust for best performance of your switches.
I have had my switches wired as described for over a year. I would like to make a change but unsure how to do this. I currently have one train running on A -U and another train running on D-U (ZW Transformer). I have my switches powered on C. I would like to use a Type "A" 90w transformer to just power the switches and remove the switches from the ZW. I can move the C from the ZW to the C on the Type "A". What do I do regarding the U terminals. I want to use a different transformer for the switches and run the trains on the ZW.
Big hand shake to Bob and all others who helped me. I started doing what you told me and making progress. Hope end results are what I expect. All the best to all.
All the U terminals are connected together just inside the transformer; so it's not necessary to use any particular one for any particular purpose. Any one or two of the U terminals should be connected to the outside rails of any tracks that you are running trains on. The A and D terminals should be connected each to the center rail of one of the two tracks. This may be how you have it connected now. However, you should be using no smaller than 14 AWG with a ZW, which can put out 15 amperes on any of its four terminals A, B, C, or D, or all of them together. Eighteen AWG is able to handle safely only about 7 amperes.
Since you are using the same transformer for turnouts and trains, you don't need to run any more wires between U terminals and the outside rails. The only additional wiring you need is 14 AWG from B or C to the fixed-voltage plugs on the turnout motors. Fourteen AWG is a bit heavy to wire directly to those plugs; so you can use a few inches of smaller wire (but no smaller than necessary) to make the final connection from the 14 AWG bus (run under the table?) up to the plug. A wire nut is a good way to tie together two (or more) 14 AWG wires and the smaller tap wire.
Try turning the output that you use for the turnouts down to the lowest voltage that works reliably. The lamps will last much longer; and you're less likely to melt the plastic lanterns.
(I assume that your two tracks are completely separate, with no way to run trains from one track to the other.)
Thank you. Correct me if I'm wrong. Currently I have the 'A' and the associated 'U' running one train. I have the 'D' and the associated 'U' running another train. I have eight 022's on one line and twenty 022's on the other line. I'm using 18 AWG so connect all the fixed voltage plugs to 'B' and run a wire from the 'U' associated to the 'B' to the outside rail of either ('A's' - 'U' or 'D's' - 'U')?
mikepIf the KW is the answer, is there a smaller transformer I can get just to power the switches and get 20 volts?
Consider the AX (with 4 different simultaneous fixed outputs: 5/10/15/20V), RW (with 3 different simultaneous fixed outputs: 10/16/19V) or RX (with 3 different simultaneous fixed outputs: 10/14/18V, plus a 0-6V "dimmer" circuit).
Connect the U terminal to the outside rails. You may already have done this if you're using the ZW to power the trains. Connect the 14 AWG wire for the constant-voltage plugs to B or C. (A smaller wire tap from the bus to the plug is acceptable.) Twenty volts is a bit high for the lamps in the turnouts and controllers. You should be able to get by with a lower voltage. If your turnout lamps are 1445 or 1447, you can make them run a little cooler by using 53 or 52 respectively. There are other ways to reduce the power a little more that involve some modification.
I have 28 switches on my layout and connecting all 28 fixed voltage plugs with a single wire (daisy chained). Can I us my ZW transformer and if so how to hook this one wire to the 'B' or 'C' section? Or will I need a KW and if so, where does this one wire go to get 20 volts fixed current. If the KW is the answer, is there a smaller transformer I can get just to power the switches and get 20 volts?
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