Thanks for all your help the help, Mike, I appreciate it!
I'm pretty sure I already have a set of those wider trucks you're talking about, in my parts bin.
I'll begin parts hunting for it, may be awhile before I have it all done, or mostly complete. Once Its to the point where im happy with it I'll be sure to post a picture to this page, and the before picture I took before i even touched anything on it.
Ray you found the instructions.!!! good luck,and i hope it works.
mike
Ray. the leather cup can be "worked" a little but i have never had much luck. if you "BING" american flyer chugger repair, you will get the link to a gentlemans instructions for repairs and his suggestions for improving the sound. i have used these before with limited success. bear in mind you are dealing with materials nearing 70 yrs old. after the cup problem the cylinder casting loves to warp or pop off chunks or just plain fails. as for replacements i am unaware of anyone that makes parts for the chugger.
bset of luck with this repair. mike
I just read the instructions from portlines. I did this the other day and it wasn't enough.
WASHER CONTACT PROBLEMS: EASIER, LESS AGGRESSIVE METHOD
Exercise the edge of the washer: bend it repeatedly back away from the bent flange, then apply plastic-safe oil to both edges, bend the edges back against the tapered washer and work the washer and its plunger back into the cylinder (remember, the leather mustn’t be bent over itself when finally located in the cylinder).
So know I'll try this:
Perform the above procedures, but pop the rivet that fastens the washer and remount the leather facing opposite its original direction. This results in tighter contact between the washer and chamber because the material is now counter-biased.
The rivet can be replaced with a 6-32 machine screw IF it is secured with a lock washer AND setting substance, such as "Loc-tite" or paint.
I hope to have time this weekend to try this out.
Ray
Bayville, NJ
Life is what happens to youWhile you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
Mike - While we're on the subject of the 561, mine has the 558C tender. The tender chugger motor runs fine but the "plyable" substance that goes into the cylinder isn't pushing enough air. I've tried molding it but still nothing. Are there any replacements I can buy or do you have any other ideas?
Thanks,
you can use a S-gauge tender. just remove the trucks and everything inside. and use the correct O gauge trucks that are a wider version of the 46-49 link coupler trucks. don't have to worry about insulating them because it's 3-rail.
Thanks Jim!
I did clean the communicator slots, It was one of those things I forgot to clean, until just a few days ago, which seemed to be part of the problem. I also did quite a few degreasing on the whole motor which still had some old grime build up, and that also seemed to help it speed up.
Thanks mike!
That's what i thought about the trim pieces being interchangeable with the S scale version. The only trim I need is bell that goes on front, and one of the lanterns on the front of the boiler. I also need a tender for it, and the pilot truck. So far Ive just found the four wheeled pilot truck f or it. I might have to settle on a tender that looks similar to the one it should have, because I can never find the tender being sold by itself...
Will the S scale tender shell work, and chassis work with a 561? I have a set of some similar styled prewar AF trucks i can use, if that's the route i chose to go with on the tender...
It's probably more of a distant cousin, is the 21160. It has the same motor set up, and when i compared the two, everything was almost identical. The armature off the 21160 looked like it would have worked on the 561, but the axle going through the worm gear, and armature was too big.
Daniel
Dan,
Did you clean out the commutator slots? If they have buildup, it will cause issues. Use a toothpick to clean them.
The oil slinger found on some later Gilbert armatures is a conical piece of brass mounted above the commutator.
using the same chassis but with extra axle holes and different valve gear, gilbert made a alantic..if you look at all the 40-41 3/16 chassises,with the pickup plate off you will see the extra holes. they are located between the middle axle and front axle holes the rear stayed the same. save money and give your engines a different look.
Daniel - I've been following this with great interest as I also have a 561. Mine runs fine though. I was just wondering that you mention earlier that you have the cousin to it and it's a 4-4-2. Which locomotive were you refering to?
other then the cylinder saddle.pilot truck and trailing truck. all trim is interchangeable.
Thanks again, Mike!
Sadly, my S scale 4-4-2 is newer than 46, and has the oil wick at the end of the brush plate, so that wouldn't fit... Some good news though, while i had my 561 all apart i notice some grime build up on some of the wire coil insides the motor and on some of the wire connections. I decreased all of that mess, just to see what that would do, not expecting much and it runs better, just slightly under half power on the transformer..i guess that helped it! Id still like to eventually buy some new brushes and an armature, just so i have them.
Another question about the 561, are body parts like the trim pieces from the S scale version of the 561, comparable with the O gauge version? I'm having a harder time finding parts for the 561, but i keep finding parts for the S scale version...
ring of fire means while it is running you see a actual ring of fire formed from the arcing of the brushes on the communtator. you can use the postwar armature but you have to use the proper brushplate depending on weither the armature has the oil slinger or not.
now some early 46 locos used leftover armature and brushplates from 1941. these armatures have a turned down shaft on the communtator end to work with the bearings in the brushplates that were leftovers from the Chicago Flyer parts supply. if you use a postwar amature just match it up with the right brushplate. same brushes and springs from the donor loco and only 2 solder connection need to be made to the newer brush tube caps. hope this helps.
Thanks for the advice, and the luck!
When you say "Ring of Fire" you're referring to the sparking, right? The amperage is good, and there aren't any issues with the power pick up or the wiring. The brushes seem to have quite bit of length to them, I even cleaned them up, and the brass contacts for them (which i forgot to do in the first place!), and still got the same results. From the look of things, It seems like the problem is linked to the armature.
I actually have the 4-4-2 cousin of this locomotive, but its the S Scale version. I noticed the armature, and brush plate seem like theyd fit the my prewar engine. My S Scale engine, I know is good, becuase i bought it from someone who restores American Flyer engines, would it hurt anything if i atleast swapped the armature from my 4-4-2 into my O scale 4-6-2, just to see if the problem is actually the armature?
I know it might be hard to swap the brush plate since it has a different wire connection to it....
Thanks again for you're help, Mike!
Hi there. 1st how many amps it it pulling with the wheels up? should be no more then 1.3-6 amps at full power in either direction.
2nd, are the brushes the correct lenth and is the armature shimmed properly on the chassis end?
3. is the pickup wire or the contact it is soldered to on the shoe plate touching the middle axle? is the insulation on the wire good?
4. does it run better in reverse or forward? if the answer to any of these questions is no then there 3 possablities. your armature is going bad after 70 yrs. the bearings in the brush plate and it's mate in the chassis is worn. the chassis casting itself is warped. ( not uncommon but usually they stay ok.)
try this. run the motor with alll the side rods removed so only the rear wheels turns. if it runs ok, then check the other 2 wheelsets for binding. if you see a "ring of fire" whille the armature is spinning the the communtator is bad or the armature is. if no fire and the rear wheel set runs ok,put the side rods only back on. make sure you have the small hole end to the rear on both rods. if it slows down again then bad axles or worn axle holes in the casting.
i have been doing repairs for over 30 yrs and the prewar 3/16 O can drive you crazy. i just did this past xmas season 2 of these engines and 1 of their 4-4-2 cousin for Nicholas Smith trains in Broomall Pa.all the owners were surprized how much work is involved trouble shooting these engines.
wish you best of luck. Mike
Just a little bit of an update, I took the motor apart, looked at the windings closer, and they're in perfect shape. As i was testing running it again, one of the dummy wheels was grinding, so i added some more oil to it, , now it works with the body shell, valve gear, and 1one of the weights inside, but it only runs at full power just still somewhat slow, but atleast its not barely moving like it was.
The motor does get a little hot after a few minutes of running, without the shell on it, or any valve gear on the wheels.I dont see any discoloration on the windings anyplace, i just shined a light into the motor, and rotated the armature. Once i have time today, Ill take it apart again and take a closer look at the windings, I didn't see any obvious damage when I first had it all apart, but I'll check again.
My other prewar American Flyer locomotive does spark also but its not as obvious. My other one has a different motor set up with the armature in the motor sideways and in the middle. And my S gauge locomotive sparks some at the brushes also, and that one has the same worm drive set up as the one Im trying to fix.
Does the motor get hot after just a few minutes of running? Do the brushes spark more than your other Flyer locomotives? Do the armature windings look discolored or burned? If so, there is the possibility of a slightly shorted armature.
Larry
Sorry about that. Yes the armature bearings, and axles are oiled. Im using just a run of the mill, vintage AC American flyer transformer which Ive used on both S, and O gauge without any issues. The brushes sit perfectly flat on the armature, and dont seem worn out to me. They do spark, one sparks more than the other. The worm and axle gear look perfect with no abnormal wear to them, so no problems there.It runs the same way backwards and forwards.
I moved the brushes around and that made the motor to run on the track at a decent speed without going to full power, just below half, but that's just without the shell on it. With the heavy body shell, even without the 2 weights that go in it, it only crawls at full power if you nudge it some. Also as the motor's moving along the track, without the body shell, it seems to jerk around some, i thought that might be an axel problem, but as im spinning the wheels, i dont see any wheel wobble.
You did not say if you oiled the axles, and especially the motor armature bearings. What transformer are you using? Are the motor brushes very worn, and are they making good contact with the commutator? Do the brushes spark excessively while the loco is running? Does the loco run better in reverse than forwards? As much information as you can is needed to help.
I just bought a pretty rough but mostly complete prewar American Flyer 561 locomotive, and I've been working on getting it running again. Ive done quite a bit to it so far, cleaning the wheels, power pick up, cleaning the brushes and their contacts, cleaning the rotor, the E unit drum, and its finger contacts. Ive also lubed the worm gear, and the gear it makes contact with.
After all of that it runs, but very slowly at full power..some times it just stops and you'd have to give a a slight nudge to move. After putting power to it, the motor gets hot. I've repaired some old Lionel and American flyer motors before, with out having to buy much for them, but this ones giving me the most trouble for some reason. This is also my first locomotive with 6 wheels,with the realistic valve gear on it, so i thought maybe i had one of the rods or wheels out of alignment? I lined up the wheels, got all the side rods on, and slowly turned the motor with my finger to make the the rods didnt have the wheels in a bind, and it didnt. I moved the wheels around without the valve gear, and they moved pretty smoothly.
I'm still new to this, so maybe there's something I haven't checked yet, or some kind of trick to get the motor running like new. I didn't pay too much for it, so if i have to replace a part of two its no big deal. When i got the engine, it was very dirty inside, but I'm pretty sure i got most of that out, and off all the contacts, and wheels
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