We are running them in the window of a classic clothing store.. Is 2to 3 hours too long or do we have problems with the motors or gears. Thanks, Joe
These are old engines. Check the brushes and swap them out if necessary. Don't forget to clean the brush tubes and install new springs if necessary. Check the wiring and solder joints while you are at it. The better overall electrical contact might lower the operating temperature. I ran my postwar for hours on end when I was a kid, fell asleep sometimes. They never stopped or overheated. .
Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry had a huge O gauge layout which opened in 1941 and a few years back was replaced with an HO layout.
The trains ran nearly all day every day except when things were shut down for track and layout maintenance. That's a zillion hours on the engines. A few years back I read an article on the net that talked about how they got so much longevity out of their pieces.......lubrication and regular cleaning.
That was the gist of it. They had a rotation schedule with the engines so that maintenace did not interfere with operation. As far as hours between a respite, I don't recall they had a schedule for that. Obviously, these were both prewar and postwar engines over the years.
You probably might be well advised to set a lubrication schedule for this based on the hours run and lube/oil them every couple of days.
Jack
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
Jack,
I don't disagree with your assessment, but I have to wonder if lubrication and regular cleaning are the answer.
I don't have an answer for the OP, but I have to think that there is something electrical causing the engines to stop running after a few hours, then restarting 30 minutes later. That suggests that the motors are overheating.
I am looking forward to Bob Nelson weighing in on this one.
Rich
Alton Junction
I almost forgot. to the forum, Joe.
Rich......I agree with the electrical assessment causing unnecessary heat buildup. But since both Joe's 675 and F3 are exhibiting the same symptom, shutdown (heat), I started out with the more obvious and easy stuff. Bob always comes up with the answer, so I will defer to him.
But on a 60+ year old engine pressed into extended service, my mind also wanders to the (unnecesary additional) mechanical load as well as the electrical.
When I took my 1950 2046 Hudson (and cars) out of about 20 years of storage, more than a light cleaning and lube was in order. The unit looked in good order and seemed to run fine; but I soon found myself removing caked grease. Upon further and closer examination, there was dog hair, human hair, and Christmas tree tinsel well hidden but disrupting a freer flow of things.
I had to use toothpicks, surgical needle nose tweezers, and a sharp pinted scalpel to get it all out. It was at that juncture I decided to go further (back to electrical) and swap out the brushes and the brush springs, plus more cleaning. Then my attention moved to the engine pickup rollers and springs. I had missed lubricating the engine bearings on my first pass as well. Finally, I replaced one wire that had seen better days and the insulation was crumbling.
One by one I cleaned and lubricated the cars. They also were creating an unnecessary load......more dog hair and tinsel. I had to do all of this while operating the train at Christmas, so it was all a work in progress. By the time I was finished, I was pulling one third more cars at the same speed with the same or less voltage input.
Meanwhile, I gave the track a good going over with scotch brite pads, isopropyl alcohol, and cotton t-shirts......until absolutely nothing remained on the tubular track surface.
Joe's high temperature and shut down indeed has a cause or two. But I think putting the more obvious behind me was time well spent. The 2046 continues to run like new with a zillion hours on the clock. It has been a good 2 decades since that cleanup without a single snafu.
By the way, Joe, is the window layout level or are their any inclines?
Jack.
That is some great advice..also the decades of congealed grease or oil has a nasty habit of creating drag or resistance on the motor causing overheating and the motor of many a armature was so full of gunk I was surprised the brushes didn't start a small fire or even make contact. A good cleaning should cure most problems and a little lubing rather than a bath is best..too much lube creates more of a problem than none. It just collects crud ( to use a technical term)
Bruce
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
Thanks, Jack, that all makes good sense.
Since both engines are acting the same, it sounds like a transformer problem. I have a Type V 150 watt transformer, and it was doing this sort of thing. I replaced it with a KW, and now no problem.
My engines will run indefinitely without stopping or getting hot. If the engines are getting hot, it is likely you have a lube problem with the engines and the cars. The engine should run by itself at about 7-8 volts. If it won't do this, it needs lube. My experience is that replacing the brushes is not usually necessary. I have the original brushes in all my locos, and I have about 50 locos, both prewar and post war. This includes a prewar 152 and a post war 2353 that has many hours on it based on the notches worn in the pickup rollers.
I lube my locos and cars with 5W-20 motor oil which never dries out and never gets sticky. Plus, it is very cheap. I don't use grease or "light machine oil" as my experience with them has only been bad. I have 50+ years using motor oil.
Electric motors get hot. As stated above lube and brushes should keep them running. Rotate them so they have a cool down period.
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
I don't think heat is your problem. The engines will come up to their operating temperature within about 20 minutes. So unless you are increasing the load on the engines, e.g. adding more cars, the engines won't be any hotter after 2-3 hours then they were after about 20 minutes.
I suspect you have a power supply problem. Have you checked the voltage to the track when the engines stop? You can just put a lighted car on the track and verify if power iss on the track.
Earl
I think I go with Bob on this one, top suspect in my mind would be the lube. Although I suppose it's possible the transformer is the issue, if it's not shutting down, I have to think that lube is the real issue here.
Trouble is, the OP says that they are lubed.
The plot thickens !
Try the easiet solutions first. If able swap transformers. If not then get other engines and try with old trasformer. Best is new transformer new engine. Once problem equipment is determined, get fixed or replace with new. While maintenance is always needed sometimes a cut to the chase saves time, when time is not available, especially in a retail environment at Christmas time.
It is very easy to determine if the transformer is the problem. Run the trains with a lighted car in the train. When the train stops, check the lighted car. If the light is still on, the transformer is providing power and is not the problem. If the light is not on, the problem is most likely the transformer. I am assuming the engines have not just cycled into neutral.
The only thing I can contribute is the observation that the resistance of copper wire increases with temperature, requiring more voltage to overcome the greater drop across that resistance. I have noticed in running trains on a loop under the Christmas tree with a 1033 that they slow considerably after a while. I'm sure this is the effect of increased temperature in the locomotive and both transformer windings. Unfortunately, the 16-volt 1033 has little voltage to spare; so sometimes the train comes to a complete stop. If the situation does involve a lower-voltage transformer like the 1033, this might explain it; but even then, I agree that the effect should be seen in well under an hour of running.
Bob Nelson
I assumed from the title of you post that the trains suddenly stopped. Do they suddenly stop or just slow down to the point where they just stop running? If they just slow and eventually stop and your transformer is maxed out, you need a more powerful transformer. If the trains are running fine and then just suddenly stop, that is a different issue.
lionelsoni The only thing I can contribute is the observation that the resistance of copper wire increases with temperature, requiring more voltage to overcome the greater drop across that resistance. I have noticed in running trains on a loop under the Christmas tree with a 1033 that they slow considerably after a while. I'm sure this is the effect of increased temperature in the locomotive and both transformer windings. Unfortunately, the 16-volt 1033 has little voltage to spare; so sometimes the train comes to a complete stop. If the situation does involve a lower-voltage transformer like the 1033, this might explain it; but even then, I agree that the effect should be seen in well under an hour of running.
I can confirm this in another way as the effect is more pronounced in my collection in relation to the age of the engine as the Marx engines tend to heat up due to a lack of air flow , and the prewar A.F do this also.you can feel the heat radiating from the metal shell, and they do slow down, especially in relation to the weight of the consist. There is sort of a curve to this. The Marx engines without changing throttle positions start off comparatively slow, and then as they warm up, the speed ramps up.The assumption is that the oil warms, changing it's viscosity. They are reliable but more quirky.
Then after about 20 minutes or so, under a heavy load of a consist, they slow down. Shorter consists seem to alleviate these effects to some degree. For what it's worth.
The modern engines I have ( MTH) due to their more sophisticated nature don't show these effects but the more direct and simpler engines( mechanically ) meaning older ones ( postwar or prewar) are very sensitive to voltage variations input as well as to internal over heating. Some I have had to rewire as the soldered connections ( in some cases) are threadbare ( especially cloth insulated wire) having a lesser diameter. How some of these connections deteriorated is a puzzle to me.
wallyworld The modern engines I have ( MTH) due to their more sophisticated nature don't show these effects but the more direct and simpler engines( mechanically ) meaning older ones ( postwar or prewar) are very sensitive to voltage variations input as well as to internal over heating.
The modern engines I have ( MTH) due to their more sophisticated nature don't show these effects but the more direct and simpler engines( mechanically ) meaning older ones ( postwar or prewar) are very sensitive to voltage variations input as well as to internal over heating.
Almost all modern MTH engines are equipped with cruise control. All cruise control engines regulate the voltage to the motors to maintain a constant speed. The cruise control is just taking the place of the operator changing the voltage via the transformer, albeit much more accurately, to maintain engine speed. So if the engine would normally slow down over time, the operator would never notice it because the electronics will increase the voltage to the motor to maintain the speed.
The cruise control electronics keeps a reserve of the available track voltage to use when more voltage is required to maintain a constant speed, such as when the train goes around a curve or up a hill.
Additionally, modern DC motors are more efficient then the older AC open frame motors.
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