Hi all, still learning about Prewar Flyer as I'm new to it. Been an S Gauge collector for more time than I care to admit..
I recently acquired a PW AF Electric 3013. It has blue lithographed sides, a blue roof and a black chassis. I recently replaced the wheels with new MEW wheels since the originals were badly broken and swollen.
The only things I could find to price this engine seems to indicate that it is a pricey little electric. Mine is in "good" condition. The litho looks really good, but the paint is worn? off the roof (paint looks like it just came off but not nicked and beat up, just worn) and the black chassis looks like it might have been painted many many years ago.
Can anyone tell me the worth of this engine in today's market and should I just leave it alone or will media blasting the chassis and roof to repaint affect the value?
And for the record this is my first AF electric style. The little devil RUNS! It's fast and handles the curves much better than the big top heavy pipers!
Lover of all things Gilbert, truly a man ahead of his time.
To be honest the best thing you can do is got Ebay and see if you can find one for sale and determine the condition against yours and add or subtract to make it fit. Now to be honest also asking some one to give you an idea what your engine is worth without pics or period is like someone asking you the value of say a car over the phone and you have never seen it.
So to me the best thing to do is what I said above or go buy a price guide and determine your self from there.
Not trying to be short or anything but just trying to give you some honest answers to your question I'm mainly into O gauge but it sounds like you have a nice engine there. Good luck in your adventures
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
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I understand about asking what an engine is worth without pics etc.. I guess I was more or less trying to find out if the number 3013 is a good locomotive as far as collectibility goes. I have one big book that covers all AF and according to it the engine I have is worth a good deal of money in Ex. condition. In VG condition it's worth $400 in this book. I would say mine is in "good" condition.. mainly because the litho is in VG condition and the painted roof is worn, the chassis is ok..
Basically in plain English I was hoping someone would say "No don't paint that it's a 3013 and they are really hard to find and collectible" or.. "Don't worry about it, in today's market it's not worth much, it's common, go ahead and paint the roof and chassis and enjoy it".
I can't speak to the rareness of this piece, but my rule of thumb is that my antique trains have to be pretty bad before I repaint. If an item is in good original condition with just normal wear, I personally would leave it. You can always repaint it later if you find out that it is a relatively common item that will have equal value regardless of current or repainted condition. Once you repaint, it will never again be original.
My favorite thing to do in a situation such as this - with an item that I can't make up my mind on worn original vs repainted - is to look around for one that is in even worse condition to restore. If I find one relatively quickly for a reasonable price, I repaint it without any regret, leaving the better item original. If I can't find another candidate for restoration, or if the prices are too high for me, then I have my answer in regards to the scarcity of the train. Or, if I find even better examples for a reasonable price, I might buy one of them and then restore my first item without regret. Best case scenario, wind up with two trains, one original and one repainted. Worst case, I still have just the one train in original condition, and I can always repaint later.
Please remember that it is your train; either way, you are preserving it for future generations while enjoying it in the present!
Just my two cents...
- James
With regards to repainting is like James said above but the final decision is yours I personally have though about it a few times and if my skills where better probably would of did do a Lionel 1688 once as I had 3 and one was in real rough shape as per paint so I painted it Gold it didn't come out to bad actually pretty good considering I was using a can of gold spay paint from like dollar general lol. I sold it on ebay about 6 months later.
Gray Cat,
Congratulations on adding a nice electric outline locomotive to your growing collection.
Your 3013 is known as a midsized box cab. It was cataloged in 1927 only. It was part of the Bluebird set or it was also available as a seperate sale item.
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
The train is yours, and you should do as you wish:. Based on your description, if the train was mine, I would not refinish it. You write that the lithography looks good. If you repaint other parts, the overall condition won't match.Some collectors are OK with repaints, others only want originals. I am in the latter camp. I'd rather have a beat up original than a refinished item.
When I started collecting, I thought it rare for collectors to accept a refinished item. As far as I knew, collectors would take what they could find, and look for opportunities to upgrade, selling the lesser piece to someone who either didn't have one, or could use it to upgrade theirs.
As always, lots of good advice and discussion.. The one thing that stands out in my mind is that if I repaint the roof then yes the rest would not be up to it's standard.. going to leave it alone and enjoy it. It's a nice little runner!
Gray Cat I have one big book that covers all AF and according to it the engine I have is worth a good deal of money in Ex. condition. In VG condition it's worth $400 in this book. I would say mine is in "good" condition.. mainly because the litho is in VG condition and the painted roof is worn, the chassis is ok..
I have one big book that covers all AF and according to it the engine I have is worth a good deal of money in Ex. condition. In VG condition it's worth $400 in this book. I would say mine is in "good" condition.. mainly because the litho is in VG condition and the painted roof is worn, the chassis is ok..
You must be looking at a book by Doyle for your price on this engine. I would disregard any of the pre-war prices in the Doyle book on American Flyer. To my knowlege, the prices in this book are overstated and generally unattainable in the market. I had an opportunity to browse the Doyle book prior to purchasing it and did not find that this book was a worthy source of information for prewar American Flyer and did not purchase the book.
Two years ago I purchased a boxed 1927 Bluebird set (similar to the set shown in the catalog artwork on Northwoods Flyer's post) on ebay with this engine and paid less than $300 for the entire set. So, that was an engine, 3 cars, a signal, tunnel, and station, all in very good plus condition with the original box, purchased from the original owner's family for less than what the price guide you are looking at indicates an engine should sell for in VG condition.
In the condition you are describing, I would suspect that you would have trouble getting $200 for the engine on ebay. But I suggest you watch ebay for a similar item, as these engines do pop up on ebay quite regularly.
As for repainting, that is up to you, but I would caution you that these engines are somewhat fragile in that the tabs that hold the roof in place and the tabs that hold the cab to the frame break easily. The typical thought is that they can be bent 2 or 3 times prior to breaking off. Once broken off, there is no way to repair the tabs and make them look original. So, think about that when repairing. The tabs were already bent once during their assembly at the factory, and the cab to frame tabs were likely bent once when you put new wheels on, so are all 4 tabs still present from the cab to frame and would they make another bend without breaking? Same for the roof tabs, they were bent once at the factory.
As a collector, I typically pass on purchasing items that have been repainted in any way. The reason being is that they are difficult to resell and do not hold their value. However, if you are looking for a piece to operate and not resell, it is up to you.
O.
Hi Otis, thanks for the information. What you say makes sense.. I only paid about $30 for my engine, I had to invest in a new set of MEW wheels but now it's running well. In anticipation of further work or a repaint I never bent the tabs on the cab to frame back over. It is just sitting on the frame. I'm of a mind to just leave it alone and not repaint it. In most cases I'm of the "it's only original once" state of mind.
Thanks,
GC
Gray Cat...........I think Otis and Northwoods have not only hit the nail on the head, but they gave some accurate downsides to repainting an item (condition/color match, tabs, impact on value). I have resisted the urge to repaint any of my pieces which are 50-60 years old and carry the signs of my child use (abuse). I am not a collector, so possibly devaluing a piece by repainting it is not a factor for me. Nor do I give a moment's thought to what my pieces might be worth to my kids or grandkids when I am gone. But that's me.
Northwoods once said it best I think in his AF thread: every imperfection in a piece carries its own unique story of a place in time (in your case 85 years ago, pre Great Depression). Some of the stories might be known; but more often with a recently acquired piece from someone you don't know, the imperfections still serve as fodder for the imagination.
That has value for me, not perfection or the best possible sample of the item. You cannot undo a repaint once it is done, but you can always change your mind down the road and fully restore it.
So I agree with your assessment. Leave the piece be and enjoy it for what it is........and it is special.
Jack
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
Rock Island, I hear you and in most cases agree.. there are times when I've acquired a piece in a collection or larger buy that is so far gone it either goes to the parts pile or a repaint and restore is warranted to make it a runner.
In addition to toy trains I collect woodrail pinballs, pre 1960 jukeboxes, and other related items. I agree that patina is a story book about where the piece came from. My goal with jukes and pins is to restore them while leaving as much of the original finish in tact as I can. For instance on the last juke I did I rechromed everything that was original plated yet left the original cabinet paint and woodgrain alone.
The temptation however on something as small as a toy train engine is sometimes overwhelming. So easy to take it apart and put it in the blast cabinet to clean it up for a fresh paint. Since the litho on this engine was really nice and it was only the roof and chassis that were in question I though about doing it.
But we'll just leave it alone and run it now. Thanks.
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