As far back as I can remember, the Super O Showroom layout was referred to as the 1957 Showroom Layout. CTT this past year published an article which said that Jack Kindler, the designer and builder of the layout was off by a year when he said they completed it for Toy Fair 1957. The article theorized that the layout was actually completed for Toy Fair 1958. In the new book on Showroom Layouts, the caption under the photo on page 13 indicates the Super O Showroom Layout was completed in 1958.Most of us who grew up in the 1950's and 60's remember the Bantam Book "Model Railroading." The book was first printed in 1950 and was originally 256 pages. The 5th Edition of this book, first printed in October of 1957, expanded the work to 384 pages and included photos of the Super O Showroom Layout on pages 62, 206 and 207. The 6th and final edition of the book, printed in September 1961, included the Super O Layout as well.If the Super O Showroom Layout wasn't completed until 1958, how could photos of the layout appear in the 5th Edition, 1st printed in October 1957?
I'm at work right now and not able to get the acticle out of ctt mag that was published but if i remember right back then the toy fair was done in like late winter ( feb/march early spring april) to get buyers ready for the coming year so if the layout was built right after that in 57 then it could of been in the book in oct 57 and it would of been ready for the toy fair in 58
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
I don't know who, or what, is right, or wrong, but having worked for a retail business, one finds out that retail, is like any other business.
Planning ahead is the way to stay on top.
"The early bird catches the worm!"
Ralph
I am astonished by how controversial this fine book is becoming.
Pete
"You can’t study the darkness by flooding it with light." - Edward Abbey -
Pete,
It's all about trying to get it right. I told Roger and Carl that if the case for 1958 was proven, I would have no problem accepting it. My strongest recollections of my families yearly Holiday Season visits to the showroom start in 1959 and go right up until it was no longer there in 1963. I certainly don't trust my recollection, but I think that the designer and builder of the layout, Jack Kindler, specifically said it was ready for Toy Fair 1957, and it would be up to anyone challenging that to present positive proof. So far that had not been done.
Now, this Bantam Book discovery seems to back up Mr. Kindler's statements in the November 1997 CTT.
OK, there seems to be, for lack of a better term, the possibility that there is a "4.5 Edition." Someone on the ORG Forum has a copy of the "5th Edition" with the same cover, which also appears to be from 1957, but has different photos on those pages.
We may be back to square one, but it still doesn't disprove 1957 as the date.
To all concerned,
NYC Fan, makes a valid point, because planning early and early production beats the competition and certain facts have to be taken into consideration for the sake of accuracy, of proof
Ralph.
DJSpanky did the steam engine in that layout have the right number of rivets?
did the steam engine in that layout have the right number of rivets?
On the port side but not on the starboard side
Why CTT and Roger Carp were NOT wrong!
I am probably responsible for the controversy over the date of the completion of the Super O layout. I presented my reasons for supporting the 1958 date in an article on page 64 of the May 2011 issue of Classic toy Trains. I think I can answer questions about the Model Railroading pages. The Fifth Big New Edition had several printings. I have the 7th and 8th printing. The 9th printing seems to be identical to the 8th, but the cover was changed and was called the 6th Big Edition. Don't confuse printings with editions - the 6th edition was, I believe the last edition, but it was the 9th printing. There may be additional printings I am unaware of.
The 7th printing that I have shows a printing date of October 1957. While this edition does show Super O track sections on page 25, it does not have any photos or scenes of Super O track on layouts. It's interesting that it states above the earliest printing, "Published October 1950" and then goes on to list the 1st printing a month earlier in September 1950. On Skip's copyright page, this 1st printing line is not there. So we certainly know there were several printings.
The 8th printing is shown as October 1958, shown in the attached scan and had the identical cover, but now includes several photos of Super O track on layouts. These are shown on pages 62, 147, and 206.
http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee460/tomtweed123/modelrailroadingcopyrights.jpg
Another point is that the 175 Rocket Launcher shown on page 206 of the 8th printing, was not even produced in 1957 and would not have been on the layout in early 1957 for Toy Fair even if layout had been up in 1957. The 175 Rocket Launcher was introduced in the 1958 catalog and would have first been introduced to dealers at the March 1958 Toy Fair. In fact, the 1958 Advance catalog, which dealers at the 1958 Toy Fair would have seen, does not yet accurately show the design of the rocket and the control panel of the 175. That design had most likely not been finalized at the time the advance catalog was printed.
Here in addition to other circumstantial evidence are the facts that indicate that the Super O layout could not have been up as early as 1957.
1. Photos taken in November of 1957 show the 1949 layout still in place
2. Two late 1957 newsreels, one by RKO and the other by Universal, show the 1949 layout in operation with the after thanksgiving snow in place. The Universal version even shows new 1957 product running on the layout, providing evidence the 1949 layout was still running in December of 1957.
3. Lionel's Dealer magazine, The Lionel Lion, dated October 1958, had an article showing a photo of the "recently completed multi-level railroad empire. . . " The photo was of the new Super O showroom layout.
I was lucky enough to have seen the layout in August of 1961 and share Skip's admiration of both the layout and the man, Jack Kindler, who designed it. I hope to meet with Skip sometime and share memories of this layout that left a lasting impression with me. I believe the evidence I have collected after a couple years of research prove the completion date of the layout to be in 1958 - in time for Toy Fair that year. I would be happy to consider any evidence that the layout was completed sooner than 1958, but in all my research, I could only find evidence supporting the 1958 date. I have found none to support Jack Kindler's recollection, 40 years after the fact. I believe he could easily have been one year off.
I welcome any additional facts.
Best to all, Bill Schmeelk
Thank you Bill Schmeelk!
For someone like me, a gen-X kid, it's hard for me to believe that Lionel didn't keep records on everything they did. But the more I see, hear and read, the more I begin to believe that they didn't keep the kind of records many corporations keep today. Or at least 1: those records didn't survive or 2: they've never been available to the general public.
All that really means to us as collectors and fans is that we have to learn to take many "facts" with a grain or two of salt since the historical record has holes. But it also means that there's a lot to explore and learn!
Becky
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
When it comes to Lionel Display Layouts, and the Super O Showroom layout in particular, Jack Kindler is the Heavy Weight Champ. Bill, you and I are only challengers and I'm afraid it's our responsibility to provide the factual, unchallegable proof if we are to state with "certainty" that the layout was completed in 1958. So far, you've made a good case with circumstantial evidence, but you haven't yet convinced me beyond a reasonable doubt.
I will play devil's advocate and respond to your points.
1.Photos taken in November of 1957 show the 1949 layout still in place.
These photos are not dated, and were taken by someone who visited the showroom many times over the years.
Does a 1957 newsreel, containing footage of the ’49 Layout, prove anything? How do we know when the actual footage was filmed? What was the purpose of the newsreel? Was it a documentary type of newsreel? Was it meant to highlight the product? And what about those 1957 items that appeared on the ’49 Layout? Prototypes perhaps? After all, the last days of the ’49 Layout that we know for sure, were only a couple of months before the 1957 Toy Fair where those products would be shown. If the purpose of the filming was to showcase the products, and it was shot in late 1956, I can see Lionel ‘s sales staff grabbing prototypes to be shown at Toy Fair, to advertise what was coming out and including them in the newsreel knowing it wouldn’t be seen by the public until sometime in 1957.
3. Lionel's Dealer magazine, The Lionel Lion, dated October 1958, had an article showing a photo of the "recently completed multi-level railroad empire. . . “The photo was of the new Super O showroom layout. THe article went on to describe the new layout and its construction.
All it says in the CTT article regarding The Lionel Lion is, “An article in the only issue, dated October 1958, noted that the new Super O layout in New York would be open to the public “early this fall.” I’d like to see this news letter.
I'm still puzzled by this "rare" edition of Model Railroading. In the meantime I'll keep searching for proof of either date.
BTW: True story, my first recollection of the layout, was a 665 Hudson pulling a long string of freight cars on the straight-a-way coming from the mountain across the layout. But, I promise I won't claim the layout to have opened in '56!
Maybe, over time, information got lost and memories became cloudy.
I believe, now-a-days, record keeping is scrutinized, more.
NYC Fan,
You're starting from the premise that Jack has a perfect recollection of the time line. I believe it's much more likely that Jack simply has the date wrong. Bill's thorough research certainly backs up his and Roger Carp's conclusion. And knowing Roger, he has also examined documents, books, magazines, photographs, and articles in painstaking detail to ensure that the facts are accurate.
I assert that it is you, NYC Fan, that has to prove otherwise. So far, you haven't convinced me,
Well unfortunately Dennis, Jack has no recollection. He's dead.I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm looking to be convinced. And, In my mind, Bill Schmeelk has no closing loop to his logic. I accept Bill's article as a theory, not as conclusive. I'd wish for you or anyone else to convince me one way or the other.By the way, I like your shower door water!
I'll briefly explain why I feel the points I made are valid.
The most definitive piece of evidence is the 1957 newsreel. Newsreels were short films supplied to movie houses with current news. The Lionel segment is a small portion of the entire newsreel. Other topics on the same newsreel included such things as international news, Eisenhower's recovery from a heart attack, etc. These were topical films made on a weekly basis and shown in theaters. These newsreels are in the National Archives and some are available from Amazon.com. It is highly unlikely that Lionel would have been operating prototypes of a loco that would not be produced until the next year after orders were received at Toy Fair. The fact that a 746 N & W loco is seen running on the 1949 layout is quite significant. Dealers wouldn't have even known about its introduction into the line until March of 1957. If you watch the actual newsreel it is evident that this exactly matches the production model. These would not have been manufactured until well after the 1957 Toy Fair after orders had been taken. I doubt that Lionel even had a running prototype at the 1957 Toy Fair. Even if they did have an operating prototype, why would they display it to the public when it wouldn't even be in the catalog for another year and months before introducing it to dealers at Toy Fair? More likely that they would be operating trains which were in the new catalog and available that year for Christmas. That places the 1949 layout in operation during December of 1957.
Lionel's one and only issue of, The Lionel Lion was published in October of 1958 and sent to dealers. Another article in it describes the lack luster sales of 1957, but that "J. Lionel Cowen sees upswing." Copies of this magazine, printed as newspaper and only 4 pages, are quite rare. The copy I saw was in the collection of Ray Fetzner. When we can get together I'll show you a photocopy.
These items along with the 1957 photos and the fact that no evidence pinning the date to 1957 has surfaced means that the preponderance of evidence is clearly on the 1958 date for the Super O layout.
Another unrelated but interesting point is that in my research I found two different dimensions for the layout. In Lionel's annual report the layout is listed as being 16 x 31 feet. In The Lionel Lion, the size is given as 16 x 32 feet. My blueprint for the Super O layout is slightly different than Skip's. I will scale it to see if one of the two dimensions makes more sense. I suppose the actual dimension depends on exactly where you're measuring from.
BTW: The 665 Hudson loco headed my very first Lionel set and was still cataloged in 1958 and it would have been appropriate to be seen running on the Super O layout.
Best to all,Bill Schmeelk
One more thing -
I also meant to mention that the 1957 Universal newsreel also included scenes which highlighted other items new in 1957. These included the Culvert Unloader, the Girl's Pink train set, and the Animated Newsstand - all new in 1957. These items were shown on the smaller demonstration layout, but prove that the newsreel crew was in Lionel's NY showroom in December of 1957 and adds credibility to the point that the shots of the larger 49 layout were taken at the same time.
Kalmbach has indicated that it is planning to get the newsreel videos on this site and I hope they can accomplish that. It would be great to see the newsreels from several time periods.
Best,Bill Schmeelk
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.
Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month