Track Power or fixed voltage?

[KRM]

Yea yea John,

Once bitten twice shy. Could–of –should-of-would-of....... Too late now. 

I do like the 42" radius switches because you can cross them so easily and they did not break the bank.

Kev.

[gunrunnerjohn]

Now you know why I like O31 track and 022 switches.

[KRM]

Okay Bob,

 Think I got it now. The new Lionel switches do not have a inside light like the old 1122Es had. Guess a person could run the light back and mount it into the control panel by each turnout switch and it would also let you know a train was on that switch.

 Thanks.

 Kev.

[lionelsoni]

The solenoids will be operating from the DC supply, but indirectly through the capacitive-discharge circuit.  There are possibly two lights involved, the one in the turnout lantern of an older turnout and the lamp added as part of the capacitive-discharge circuit.

The lantern light will still be powered from the track unless you go to the trouble of disconnecting it from the center rail and attaching it to its own supply.  You could power it from an AC or DC source, including the DC source that powers the capacitive-discharge circuit, but not to the output of that circuit.  I just leave mine powered from the track.

The lamp in the capacitive-discharge circuit is there only for the electrical purpose of charging the capacitor, which it does more quickly and completely than a simple resistor would.  It will light up whenever a train is stopped on the turnout or passing over it.  You could simply hide or cover it to keep the light from being seen.  I prefer to use them in some accessory, like lighted bumpers or billboards.  For the bumpers, I just stick a very short piece of track at the end of the siding, completely isolated from the siding track, and make my connections to the rails of that short piece of track.

[KRM]

Good morning!!

Bob,

So are you saying you would be running the switches off of the DC power supply then? And the light only lights up when the train activates the AC power to it when sitting on the track.

 You are also right on the U post, on my RW the U post goes to the center rail. I saw that too.

I think I will try that on one for starters.

Thanks,

Kev.

[lionelsoni]

Thanks, John.

I have damaged one, although it's been so long that I don't remember the circumstances.  The first thing that happens is that the plastic bobbin that the solenoids are wound on melts.  Mine was not so bad that I wasn't able to recondition the hole with drill and file.

Making it hard to use a fixed voltage was Lionel's partial solution to the problem:  With the turnout powered from the track, it was much less likely, although still possible, that a train would stop on the turnout while the turnout was still powered.  So it's a little odd that they would tell us how to defeat this precaution.

My experience is that you need a bit of luck to be able to rewire one without removing the steel bottom plate.  The wire routing varies a lot from turnout to turnout.  You might be able to snag it as they describe--or not.

One thing that's wrong with their description is the stern warning:  "The separate power supply must be in phase with the track power supply for proper operation."  It actually doesn't matter at all.  Another error is, "you can attach this ground wire to the 'U' post on the track power supply."  This is true only if your transformer's common terminal is U, which is not the case for numerous Lionel transformers.  They should have said, "you can attach this ground wire to the post on the track power supply that is connected to the outside rails."

[gunrunnerjohn]

Yep, don't park trains on O27 switches, they have that problem anytime, modified or not.  Don't know how long it takes, but I've seen a number of cooked O27 switches, though I've never fried one myself.  I have noticed the coils energized when a train is sitting on them.  The time to fry would obviously be dependent on the track voltage across the coils.

 

I like the capacitive circuit described, sounds like a nice solution to the weakness of the O27 switches.

[KRM]

WOW guys TMI.

Thanks but…….

If you do not use fixed voltage and run on track voltage does this burnout condition still exist with these 027 switches?? New 6-65167 and 6-65168. I have noticed if parked on them you can here them humming.   My 1122Es with the light will jump when crossing them and buzz like crazy.

You would think Lionel would make mention of the problem / condition in their instructions but they don’t. See page five. http://www.lionel.com/media/servicedocuments/70-5167-250.pdf

All they say is cut the wire feeding from the track and hook to the power source. They make it sound simple. My simple self is getting a headache from all of this tech stuff. How long would you need to sit on one to cook it?

 

Tks,

Kev.

[lionelsoni]

What John said.

However, I have some old O27-profile K-Line turnouts that do have the switch inside, and enough terminals that they can be wired for fixed voltage without taking them apart.

Although some folks have come up with rather elaborate protection circuits, all you really need is a 5 millifarad capacitor, a number 53 lamp, and a DC supply to power it all.  The supply charges the capacitor through the lamp in a second or two; and the capacitor provides the necessary current to the turnout for the split second that it takes to throw.  If a train stops on the turnout, the lamp lights continuously, trying but failing to charge the capacitor.  The steady-state current is no more than the lamp's normal 120 milliamperes, which is far less than what it takes to heat up and damage the turnout's coils.

[gunrunnerjohn]

KRM

Do you mean I need something like I use on my lock-ons to protect the electronics in the newer engines?

? Mouser part # 576-1.5KE36CA.

 Would I need one on every switch or just the feed wires from the transformer?

Those are transient suppressors, the circuit he's talking about for protecting the switches is totally different.  O31 switches have internal contacts that open up the coil connection when the switch is in the correct position.  None of the O27 switches that I've ever seen have the same contacts, so if a train parks on the switch, the coil will be continually energized through the non-derailing connection and burn up the coil in time.

[balidas]

Here is a very good thread where a forum member rewired his turnouts and added the capacitive discharge circuit.

http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/173684.aspx?PageIndex=2

[KRM]

Bob,

Humm....... what?

 Do you mean I need something like I use on my lock-ons to protect the electronics in the newer engines?

? Mouser part # 576-1.5KE36CA.

 Would I need one on every switch or just the feed wires from the transformer?

Tks,

Kev.

[lionelsoni]

If you convert O27 turnouts, be sure to power them with a capacitive-discharge circuit, or something equivalent, so that they don't burn up if a train stops on a control rail.

[KRM]

Lee and John Thanks.

Lee you are right the 027 switches will need to be changed over to fixed voltage but it is easy to do.

John,

I will try the parallel wiring to see if it works. I think it should.

The RW has fixed voltage output post that provides 15 volts. That should work I think.

Thanks for the answers,

Kevin 

[gunrunnerjohn]

Use constant voltage if possible on any switch.  If you're running slow in conventional operation, you may not have enough track voltage to throw the switch completely.

 

As far as switching them together, I just wire them in parallel to the switch for 022 switches, I'm assuming it's the same for the O27 style.

 

[phillyreading]

With the newer O gauge switches I would use constant voltage to them, be very careful to use the correct voltage to newer Lionel switches as their electronics are very fussy about higher voltages. Use a multimeter with AC voltage setting to adjust the voltage from your transformer to the switch.  You can put several switches on one transformer output, as you usually use only one at a time.

The 027 switches from Lionel, that I know of, use track power only and must be changed over to use constant voltage.

If you have the newer switches, you should also invest in a newer transformer as the older transformers don't have good circuit protection when used with newer stuff.

Some Lionel switches made in current years, such as the O gauge # 6-23010, are very difficult to use for long term on your layout.

Lee F.

[KRM]

Good morning,

Starting to gather up the stuff to wire my switches. Most are new Lionel 6-65167 and 68 027 switches with 042 radius 3 are 027 radius.

I am wondering which is best. Should I use the track voltage from my RW or the constant voltage output terminal post to power the switches. At present I have 9 switches that need to be powered up. Also can you wire two switches off of a single control switch to operate at the same time? That would be for side spur switches. I know you should not need to switch them both because of the non-derailing operation but I am just wondering.

Thanks,

Kevin