I have a garage sale Lionel Sante Fe Alco 8020. I tried to sell it on ebay: $50, $40 & finally $30 and no sale. So now I'm wondering how hard it would be to replace the front unpowered truck with a powered truck to match the one in the rear? Are there any cheap engines I could get a donor powered truck from? How about adding a coupler to the front. I know I would have to cut a hole in the nose. This is the first silver, red, yellow Sante Fe engine I have owned. Now I know why the Sante Fe F3s were so popular. Its a beautiful color combination.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
I think you're trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear here. I think if you want a dual-motored locomotive, you should look around for one.
I'm not sure it would be possible. The chassis is already stamped in the front truck area, and I think the way it is done will interfere with the holes you would have to make to accommodate the second motor. Also, there is not much space inside these--even if you can get a front power truck installed, you will probably have to sacrifice the headlight.
Your experience trying to sell yours indicates that you could probably get another loco for a good price. Then you could have two motors in two units, with a lot less trouble. Look at it this way: If your Alco is underpowered, well, the real first generation diesels really weren't very powerful either, which is why prototype railroads tended to operate them in units of 2 or 3 or 4.
Boyd,
There is a reason you could not get any good bids on an 8020.
I use an 8020 shell on a old 202 chassis because it is a close match to my 218s.
I have added a 211 front truck with a coupler to the 202 but my 8020 shell was already cut out for it.
I don’t know if you can do twin motors on any post 1957 ALCO of that 027 size.
If you find out how to make it a twin motor unit let me know.
Good luck,
Kevin
Joined 1-21-2011 TCA 13-68614
Kev, From The North Bluff Above Marseilles IL.
I second the motion on making a powered AA pair. I did that with my 2023s and wound up with a real stump puller. I use a single e-unit and wiring between units tie-wrapped to the rear couplers, effectively making them inseparable.
Bob Nelson
I apologize for not bidding on your locomotive. I simply do not have the extra money right now.
I recall that Jim Barrett at "the other magazine" had a "how to" article a few years ago on tethering two single motor engines to run off of the same e-unit using quick-disconnect plugs. You might try over at their web site and see if someone can get you a copy.
I have a pair of post-war Alco FA's awaiting the same treatment once I have the time to get around to it. As a kid, I watched the New Haven run A-A FL9 units on small trains on the Berkshire line so that the engines would not have to be turned at the end of the line at Pittsfield - it was an expensive way to come up with a dual cab diesel!
Bob - I'm also thinking that it might be helpful to put a bridge rectifier on board both Alco's to power the motors with DC rather than AC in the hope improving performance - any thoughts as to whether this will help or not?
Thanks,
Mike
It's actually very easy to run two locomotives from a single E-Unit. You'd just connect the wires 1:1 through a tether to the secondary locomotive, job done.
Many places sell ready-made tether cables that would be perfect for the job.
As far as powering them on DC, I can't imagine what this would improve.
To me Dc I wouldn't go to as if you do that ( if I remember hearing this right) you lose the use of your e-unit and you need to run from a dc transformer that powers both ways to get your reverse.
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Lionel trains with universal motors and e-units don't care whether they are run on AC or DC (except for the whistles). In any case, I suspect that the limitation is not power but adhesion.
There are two ways to run on DC:
o You can put the rectifier in the locomotive, in which case you will have to continue to use the e-unit if you want electrical reversing.
o You can put the rectifier at the transformer. In this case you can continue to use the e-unit for reversing; or, with a slight locomotive modification, you can do reversing by reversing the track-voltage polarity.
Bob is the 8020 a universal engine I didn't think so but probably wrong.
I would do as Bob Nelson suggests. I have numerous AA consists, and with 1 motor in each A unit and a connection between units for running with 1 e-unit, I have plently of power. The one set I like best is my Texas Special 210-211. Each has magnetrction, same paint with individual numbers and they pull and run real well together. These are as they came from the factory, excepting the connection.
I also have a set of AA painted like the earlier 2032s, but with the later motor/bodies. These were made using SanteFe 204s and have the battery operated horn, added windows, lighted number boards. I don't know how much these units go for at train shows, but at one time they were pretty cheap as the earleir models were the ones that people wanted. You take a couple of the type we have been talking about, and you could with some time, and imagination come up with some nice looking engines for a reasonable price. I want to do a set in NH orange with the stirping, and even think of getting a B unit, and customize the frame so that I could put 1 motor in the B. There is so much you can do, that is one of the things I like about the hobby.
Anyhow, good luck.
Reversing track voltage for a universal motor will NOT reverse the rotation, you have to reverse the field polarity with some sort of switch, aka the E-Unit.
A permanent-magnet-field DC motor reverses when you reverse the motor (armature) voltage, because that reverses the polarity of the armature relative to the field. An unmodified universal motor does not reverse when you reverse the motor voltage, because that reverses the polarity of both the armature and the field. So the polarity of the armature relative to the field does not change. It is this fact that makes a universal motor universal, able to run on either DC or the rapidly changing polarity of AC, but also makes it insensitive to the polarity of the DC.
However, if you make the "slight locomotive modification" that I referred to above, to keep the polarity of either the field or the armature constant, the universal motor will respond to a reversal of the track-voltage polarity just as a DC motor does. The easiest modification is to keep the armature polarity constant, by replacing the e-unit by a bridge rectifier module. Connect the rectifier's input terminals (~) to the pickup (maybe red) and field (maybe green) wires. Connect the output terminals (+ and -) to the brushes (maybe yellow and blue).
Bob:
Bob, thanks, that makes a lot of sense and is very helpful.
I "stole" about a half-hour this morning (I'm sure the company will get in back this weekend, so no problem) to conduct a quick test.
I have an 8020, which is an MPC product with a single motor in the rear truck with a two position e-unit (forward / reverse only, no neutral), traction tires, and a solid nose with no front coupler (apparently they did not come with either the plastic windshield insert or headlight lens), along with a matching 'B' unit. I created an ABA lashup with the 8020 in front (by necessity, since it only has a rear coupler) and a post war 218 (1959, single motor, two magnetic axles, three-position e-unit, couplers at both ends and a horn).
I locked the e-unit in the 8020 in forward and locked the e-unit of the 218 in reverse (since it was running backwards) and put three 2400 series passenger cars behind them (all with two pickups, and the axles and pickups freshly oiled). Starting voltage was just over 8 volts and the train accelerated nicely and ran smoothly, but very loud, my only immediate observation being that after five minutes both motors seemed much warmer than if run alone with the same consist - I guess mixing and matching traction tires and magnetraction might not be the best approach, but the ABA lashup looked good.
I have to dig out another MPC Alco and see how they run together but will not be able to put any cars behind them (no front couplers).
One reason for motors getting hot is that AC motored locomotives don't lash up as well in conventional mode as DC can motored locomotives. Frequently, the AC motors fight each other.
A simple test, separate the two locomotives and with both of them on the track, crack the transformer and see if they run at widely different speeds when on the track together.
Actually, it's the other way around. Permanent-magnet DC motors want to run at a speed proportional to the voltage, which is of course the same for both motors. DC motors that want to run at different speeds unloaded also want to run at those same speeds loaded; but they can't if they're coupled together. The result is that the slower motor is trying to stop the train and the faster to speed it up.
A slower series motor will draw less current and do less work than a faster motor, but it won't try to stop the train.
I don't know what the problem is here; but I doubt that it's universal motors fighting each other.
What is the number of the headlight bulb? I can't read the number of the old one.
Boyd:
Just opened up the 8020 and the part number of the bulb is faded beyond recognition.
Lionel's "Parts List and Exploded Diagrams, 1970-1986," lists the part number as 161-300.
Hope that helps.
Adding a bridge rectifier to the field coil of a universal motor will keep the field coil at a constant polarity when dc is used. When you power the motor with dc and reverse the source voltage, the armature polarity changes, but not the field polarity, thus the motor runs the opposite direction.
Martin - Welcome to Trains.com!
Darren (BLHS & CRRM Lifetime Member)
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Martin, I think that's what I said up above, except that I would and did recommend putting the rectifier on the armature rather than the field, since that does not require ungrounding the field winding from the motor frame.
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