CW-80 Issues. The new versus the old??????

[KRM]

Well I got my new CW-80. A newer one built 8-10-10 so I can run the newer engines with Railsounds, crew-talk and that stuff but I have a problem. I have over 75’ of live track on my main loop, and over 30’ in the switchyard. On the main loop I have 7 remote switches with the Lionel automatic non-derailing that split the loop into a smaller loop and parking side spur. Two of them switch into the yard. 5 are O42 and 2 are O27. Including the yard there are 11 switches. I thought that the length of the track had no effect on the size of transformer needed. With the old RW transformer operation is smooth and constant around the loop.

Well I hooked up the CW and when I run the train over the switches the CW flashes the green light and it stops or slows the engine. In this case a Norfolk Southern Dash 8-40C # 8689 from 1992 with dual pullmore motors with 5 heavy loaded log cars 2 postwar box cars and a cabosse. When the cars roll over the switches you always see sparks as they cross over the fiber pins but this had no effect on the operation with the old RW transformer.

I was reading in the CW manual that if you exceed the power limit of the CW the green light will flash and cause the same effect as I am experiencing. So I guess my questions would be is this CW too small or are they not compatible with the switches? Does it think the train is shorting out as it crosses over the switches? Has anyone else had issues like this? The CW works fine on my small inner loop with one manual O27 switch and a #41 Army motorized unit pulling 2 bulkhead cars with lumber loads.  Today I will try the main loop with a single motor ALCO and see it that works better.

You may want to see the earlier post "Modern Railsounds" from last week for more background info.

Any advice will be of great help.

Thanks,

Kevin

[sir james I]

Sparks mean dirty track and wheels. Providing the switches are installed correctly. Are the fiber pins on the correct rails? the CW 80 is a good starter transformer but got a bad rap after the first ones caused problems.

[KRM]

I just tried to run my other Trains and had same kinds of problems but not as bad with the 218 ALCO with heavy load but had a ton of problems with a 1971 Chesapeake & Ohio Atlantic Steam Engine 8142 with small load. Most of the time crossing the O42 switches. Could not even get into or out of yard with out transformer reversing engine.

 Tks,

 Kev.

[KRM]

Track is "new" and clean and switches are wired correct.

May be some sort of clearance issues with some cars and engines with drag when crossing the switches. There is always small sparks as the wheels cross the fiber pins and complete the circuit. I have seen this ever since I was a kid even with the old 122E switches..

Thanks,

Kev.

[sir james I]

Yes always some small sparks but it sounds like yours are from some sort of shorting when the train goes over the switches. Not being there I can only tell you what it seems to be. What you describe is not from the CW-80.

Set up some track without the switches and see if your trains run.

[KRM]

Sir james,

Seems the CW –80 circuit breaker is much more sensitive than the old RW. That may account for the problem.

As I said in the earlier post it works fine on the smaller inner loop with the #41 and O27 switch.

Wanting to see if others using the new Lionel O42 switches have see this.

Thanks,

Kev.

[sir james I]

Yes the breaker is much more sensitive, but that's not your real problem. The problem is whats making it do that? Only guessing here but I still think it's a problem with the switches. Again I am not there to have a look see.

[lionelsoni]

I think this is probably a good illustration of an important difference between traditional transformers and modern "transformers".  I use quotation marks because the new machines like the CW-80 contain substantial electronics along with the actual transformer at the heart of the thing.  The older ones were mostly an actual transformer in a bakelite box.

The semiconductors in the new ones do not tolerate overloads well and must be protected with electronic overcurrent arrangements that shut them down immediately when their limits are reached.  The older ones, on the other hand, robustly handled very substantial overloads for short times.  This is why I often advise against using fast circuit breakers or fuses with them.  They do just fine with brief overloads and don't cause "nuisance" tripping.

I suspect that the CW-80 here is running close enough to its capability that it is reacting to the brief but heavy overcurrents that occur when a turnout is switched.

As for the arcing, it is normal, even with clean track.

[wrmcclellan]

I agree with Bob. The RW is a 110W transformer and as Bob notes can handle intermittent overloads gracefully where the new CW-80s use a sensitive current foldback circuit (vs a circuit breaker) to handle overloads. The CW light flashes when there is an overload or short circuit. The CW-80 is an 80 Watt transformer with a 5 amp 110 vac to 18 vac transformer in it that puts about 4.4 amps to the track where the RW can give you close to 6 amps at 18 vac. With the dual Pullmors and other loads potentially on your large loop (you did not note how many other lights are being run from track power which add additional load - but unless you modified them, the 0-27 and 0-42 switches run from track power)  you are right at the limit of the CW-80. As you note your smaller loop works fine with the CW-80 it is potentially due to a bit less load on the CW (due to less switches and their internal lamps) and thus stays under the CW current limt.

Note the CW-80 does have an internal 5 amp fuse that will blow to prevent damage to the CW-80 transformer core, but it is not consumer replaceable and it is rare that the internal fuse blows.

The new CW-80s are very reliable. From the work I have done we have had nearly a hundred of them in service for years now and no failures. Many of them are operated daily (8-12 hours per day) for weeks or months at the holiday season.

[KRM]

Thanks Bob and Roy!

Kind of figured that I had it at the limit. Only other lights are two cabooses in the yard and one 261 bumper.

Is there any kind of accessory that you can hook up to make the railsounds and crew talk work with the old transformers?

Kind of like the old # 167 whistle controller? If not and if I do get a newer engine with the railsounds and crew talk I guess I will just make another loop for those units.

For now I will just stay with the old RW and use the CW-80 on the small loop instead of my 1042.

I still have issue with the 042 switches with some of the Locos when they pass over them. The 1971 # 1842 is the worse one.

Any comments on the Lionel 027 42 radius switches would be good to hear.

Thanks again,

Kevin

[wrmcclellan]

Kevin,

To make the RS whistle and bell work with the RW you need a couple of the old Lionel whistle/bell pushbutton controllers. These units have been out of production for some time so you have to pick them up from Lionel, the Bay, retailer with old stock, or a train swap meet. The Lionel P/N is 610-5906-001 . You need two of them to make the bell/whistle (or bell/horn) wired in series back-to-back (i.e. red wire to red wire or black wire to black wire with the other wires connected - one to the track center rail and the other to the transformer track AC variable output). There is a drawing of the hookup here on Lionel's web site:

http://www.lionel.com/media/servicedocuments/73-6847-250.pdf

Lionel still has these controllers. You can find it by doing a search on the replacement parts page of their website. Seach on "6105906001" and use "Replacement Part Number or Name" and set MATCH to "Any Part of Word". They retail for $16 each (+ shipping) from Lionel.

http://www.lionel.com/CustomerService/ReplacementParts/

Note Lionel has really improved their web site for parts replacement. You can even get a photo of the part in many cases to be sure you are purchasing the correct part. Mike Reagan gave an excellent presentation of the improved web site at the LCCA convention in Dallas this summer.

Unfortunately to make advanced Lionel RS work (i.e. crew talk, blowdown, etc., features other than the whistle and chuff/diesel sounds) one must have a TMCC or Legacy control system (note that TMCC has been replaced by the Legacy system).

Hope this answers your question.

[wrmcclellan]

I forgot to note the arcing as Bob explains is normal and can depend on the loco, # wheels, etc., (i.e. traction tires can aggrevate this). The arcing is caused by the wheels completeing the circuit to activate the solenoid to throw the switch for the non-derailing feature. The arcing can occur regardless of whether the switch is aligned or not for the route. If one listens carefully as the train runs over the switch one can hear the internal relay chattering when the wheels connect the circuit across the outer rails adjacent  to the frog (from the diverging rails side of the switch).

[lionelsoni]

Since the RW already has a whistle controller, you should need only one more external controller for the bell.  Be aware that these external controllers will reduce the transformer output by a couple of volts.

[KRM]

Bob and Roy,

 Thanks I have ordered one from Lionel.

 Tks,

 Kevin

[sir james I]

While all the above statements are true. You should not be having problems every time a train goes over a switch. They should run across them almost as well if on a normal piece of track. Using a larger transformer is just masking the problem.

[lionelsoni]

If not the inability of modern "transformers" to handle brief overloads, what is the problem that is being masked?

[sir james I]

In his post he says his engines won't cross the switches without slowing down and reversing, I didn't go back to reread but he says the steamer hardly runs across them at all. that is not the way normal switches should function. The engines he refers to do have AC motors and could cause a power drain on the CW-80 but it seems 80 watts should run one easy enough, and crossing switches should make no difference in the engines performance.

[KRM]

 Re-read and you will see that I have asked if anyone else has these issues with the Lionel 027/042 switches. I am only looking for suggestions as to what is the problem. Doubt that even if everone was to look at the operation  anyone could get a better guess than the people in this thread have. Did not just bump my head and land on this planet. My bet is the transformer is too small for what I am asking of it.

 Kevin

[KRM]

Just in case you need to know all these switches are new.

Tks,

 Kevin

[sir james I]

I was only trying to help.there are layouts all over the country using those same component's without any issues at all. My own son could be an example here. He runs a layout with a CW-80 and a Lionel 4-6-4 with an AC motor, smoke element and whistle.  I am done here.

[KRM]

James,

I am just frustrated that I am having these problems on a layout with new switches and almost all-new track. Like you I am not new to this stuff, but this one has me questioning myself.

Kind of wish I had used Atlas or Gargraves now but too late for that.

I kind of think I am with Bob on this. It seems to be the inability of modern "transformers" to handle brief overloads and the design conflicts between the Engines I am running and the switches.

Thanks for all your help.

Kevin