Question about a #145 Automatic Gateman, Possible variation?

[Dr.Fu-Manchu]

The [}:)] Doctor is in !!! This Question is for you out there that have a bit more
information than I have. I bought a #145 Auto. Gateman on E-bay in a box lot.
It came with a replacement roof which is a slightly different shade than the doors, windows & tool box lid. They are maroon, the roof is more dark red. The
underside of the platform is the question: It is metal on the two I have, the bottom plate on this one is cardboard! It looks like it was stamped out like the
metal ones. Do I have a variation, Or is this one of the weird things that came
of lionel's last gasp in the late 1960's ? Any info from our learned members
will be most helpful.

Till My Next Missive, I Remain The Humble, Yet Strangly [}:)] Doctor !!!

[Big_Boy_4005]

The roofs did come in both red and maroon, and both are common as far as I can tell. A cardboard bottom seems strange for post war. The MPC flagman which used the same metal base did have a cardboard bottom, and I'm wondering if someone simply didn't do the old switch-a-roo.

What color is the cardboard?

[Dr.Fu-Manchu]

The[}:)] is back!!! Elliot, Thanks for your interest. The base is a light to med. green,the cardboard is a kind of kelly green. I just took off the cardboard and found the the following #00-2145-015 on the inside. The shack has the part #145-17. The roof has a
sticker from a hobby shop in Pa. Which leads to think the roof was a replacement part.
But since according to my Greenburg book, the sub base was not sold as a replacement part. Do you think I have a very early MPC crossover? The part# 's on the
shack & the base lead this way. Please advise.
Till my Next Missive, I Remain The Humble, Yet Strangly [}:)] Doctor !!!

[Big_Boy_4005]

First of all, green is the right color for the cardboard.

This is a real puzzle, because this piece has almost never gone out of production. To further handicap my research, I don't have any recent books on this subject. The newest material I have is from 1991.

As far as I can tell, the earliest versions of the MPC era gateman had the old metal bottom. Remember General Mills took over in 1969, and their first year of production was 1970. At that time much of what was released was made from parts inventory that came over at the time of the sale. The book I have says that, the only way to tell the earliest MPC offerings from the post war, is the box. Other than that they are identical.

There was one notable change listed in 1978, and that was the door. The old door had a 2 pane window, the new door had 12 pane window.

The question remains when did the cardboard bottom come into use. Did MPC continue to have metal bottoms stamped after the original supply ran out, or did they go right to the cardboard and the cost cutting? The fact that the part number is a 2124 would suggest that the use of cardboard started sometime in the 70's. From experience, the first time I remember seeing one was on the 2128 automatic switchman in 1983.

The gateman went out of production for a couple of years in the mid 80's. It returned with a new number and new colors after Richard Kughn bought the company. The 12713 definately had the cardboard bottom, but in my 1991 Greenburg the "experts" are seeking help on this very question. Unfortunately I don't know if they have found anything.

Are you holding the missing link, or just something cobbled together? If it is a regular production variation, which I'm beginning to believe it is, it is worth reporting if it hasn't already been discovered. The question would then be, how many years was it made that way? I am most convinced that this would not be early production, it would be late.

With regard to part numbers. Generally, unless the part was modified from the postwar version, the number would remain the same. That said, it follows that the cardboard base has the 2145 number while the shed which remained unchanged throughout production retained the 145 number.

Sorry I don't have a better answer. Now you have me curious too.

[Dr.Fu-Manchu]

The [}:)] Doctor is back !!! Elliot, Thanks for your help! I am going to ask my local dealer
who is very well versed in toy trains about the item. I was going to sell it to jerry, But I am going to sell him another one I have and keep this one. Again, I thank you for your
help, You are the Man!!!!

Till Next Missive, I Remain The Humble, Yet Strangly [}:)] Doctor !!!

[mersenne6]

Checked my MPC era Gateman last night. It has the two pane door, dark brown roof, door, and tool crib cover and the bottom is green cardboard.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mersenne6

Checked my MPC era Gateman last night. It has the two pane door, dark brown roof, door, and tool crib cover and the bottom is green cardboard.

You're welcome Doc, and thanks Mersenne6 for checking your's.

This supports the theory that the bottom change took place before the door change. It follows that there were at least 7 production years (77 - 84), maybe more, with the cardboard bottom. All of the evidence suggests, and common manufacturing practice would dictate that once the change was made, it was made forever. I think that it's pretty safe to say that cardboard was not used in 1970 or 1971. Again, the only distinguisging feature those years would have been the original box. So, to find one in the early box with a cardboard bottom, would be a real rarity.

1972 was something of a breakthrough year for MPC if you study the catalogs. That was the year when some new designs of old items started to hit the shelves. It sort of marks the end of the transition. There were lots of new parts being created. I did some research on a forum question about an early MPC engine and discovered that the entire motor assembly had been changed from the postwar. The new motor had a new part number of course.

Did the switch to cardboard happen in 1972, or did they stay with metal for a few more years? The only true date test, that I can see, is original boxes. There were a couple of style changes on them during the period in question.

So Doc, which door is on the piece in question? By the way, I know that my gateman is a postwar, because I was playing with it before 1970. [swg]

[Dr.Fu-Manchu]

The [}:)] Doctor is in !!! Elliot, The door has two panes. The door is the same as a post-war model I have. Where does that leave us???

Till My Next Missive, I Remain The Humble, Yet Strangly [}:)] Doctor !!!

[Big_Boy_4005]

I sincerely believe somewhere between 1972 and 1977. At least we aren't in the Twilite Zone. [swg] Now every time I see a gateman on a table at a train show I'll have to pick it up and look at the bottom. See what you've done to me with your [}:)] powers? [banghead][:P][(-D][(-D][(-D][;)][bow][:D]

[mersenne6]

I dragged out the gateman box and the old photos of all of the past rug centrals. The box is the MPC box with photos of the gateman on the outside. The number on the box is 6-2145 - the identifier for the gateman inside. I put up Christmas layouts every year from 1975-1989 and the first time this version of the gateman shows up is in the Christmas 1980 photos. This means I probably bought the gateman in 1980 or perhaps 1979 but not any earlier than this. Thus the version with the brown roof, door, and tool box cover, two pane door, and green cardboard bottom dates from at least 1979-1980.

[Dr.Fu-Manchu]

The [}:)] Doctor is in !!! Be glad I like you Elliot, You don't want to know what happens to
folk I don't like ! Again, Many thanks from this humble evil doctor.

Till My Next Missive, I Remain The Humble, Yet Strangly [}:)] Doctor !!!