Lionel & American Flyer Today

[Anonymous]

Lionel holds the rights to the AF name but I don't see much happening. Three or four years ago, I thought S gauge was going to take off but it hasn't happened. What's Lionel waiting for, the resurrection of A.C. Gilbert?

pax[C):-)]

[Big_Boy_4005]

The resurection of A. C. Gilbert, or perhaps the demise of Mike Wolf, hard to say. [swg]

Seriously though, it seems like the current regime has no interest in Flyer. Maybe past experience tells them that the money isn't there, so why bother. Compared to some of the stuff S Helper and others are coming out with, the old Flyer molds look sad. The one thing Lionel has done is remake some of the best Flyer accessories.

Maybe it's time to sell or lease the train tools to someone who wants to use them to make some trains.

Where you been Joe?

[spankybird]

Did not Lionel come out with a NYC Hudson (all new tooling) in American Flyer in the 2004 vol1 catalog[?] I haven’t received my vol 2 catalog yet, so don’t know if they have another new engine or not.

Loinel also has a bunch of new cars in the vol 1 catalog.

Also K-line has a bunch of S gauge cars now.

That’s really pretty good, considering how small the market place is for S gauge.


tom

[IRONROOSTER]

The leading S manufacturers are American Models and S Helper Service. See http://www.trainweb.org/crocon/sscale.html for what's available in S scale. S scale is taking off, but Lionel - American Flyer is not leading the charge. More like they are limping along behind.
Enjoy
Paul

[Big_Boy_4005]

Tom, I'm not the catalog hound I once was, so what you are saying is news to me. I was under the general impression that Lionel has been dragging their feet with Flyer since 1980 when they restarted after a 15 year absence. One or two new pieces a year won't sustain or resurect a scale that has been so long ignored, and certainly won't win a lot of converts.

Paul and Joe are right, Lionel has taken a great name in trains and nearly smothered it. But back in the 60's maybe that was the idea.[:O][:(]

[spankybird]

I never meant to say that they were leading, it even surprised me to see that they decided to produce a new engine.


tom

[ben10ben]

Lionel cataloged a USRA Light Mikado with Railsounds and TMCC last year. Someone posted an unfinished prototype photo from a national S gauge convention shortly after it was cataloged on the OGR forum, but I haven't heard any more of it since then.

Lionel also has an 0-6-0 that I believe is cobbled together from vintage tooling complete with the chugger mechanism(oh boy!) in the new catalog.

Other than that, the only thing that they seem to be doing is adapting all of the old Flyer operating cars to O gauge(like the Moe and Joe Lumber car, Walking Breakman car, and Operating Caboose), and re-issuing old acessories.

I would like to see them do more TMCC American Flyer locos, as well as some more accesories. I really would like to see a 799 Union-style Talking station, not the 759 Mystic Talking station that they modeled.

[ben10ben]

By the way, American Flyer is the best preserved A.C. Gilbert name of all of them. Erector exists only in name, and the current "Erector Sets" have only a passing resemblence to what they were under the command of A.C. Senior.

I doubt most of you out there have ever heard of Mysto Magic or Polar Club, both of which were once very well known Gilbert trademarks. Mysto Magic sets were the first product of the A.C. Gilbert company. Polar Club was a line of appliances using a motor also found in some Erector Sets. Polar Club fans were very well known at one time.

[Dave Farquhar]

Gilbert was in extremely bad shape when Lionel bought the Flyer rights from them, and Lionel wasn't in much better shape. Within a few months of the purchase, Lionel Corp. was bankrupt too, so there wasn't anything to do with what was left of the Flyer line. During the MPC exile, the brand came back. But like Ben said, the biggest thing Lionel has done was remake the old accessories. And if you look at the packaging, it notes that it's completely compatible with O/O27 as well, so you know the motivation. :)

S gauge is a smaller market. K-Line is taking advantage of O27 and S both sharing 1:64 scale--the K-Line S cars are just O27 cars from the old Marx tooling with Flyer-compatible trucks and couplers bolted on. So they can undercut others' prices and still maintain a profit margin. S-Helper and American Models are really in a different league, with their level of detail and everything.

Lionel doesn't care much about it, but I don't know that it matters. Gilbert died with Alfred Carlton Gilbert himself. No one else could have built that company, and as it turned out, even Gilbert's son couldn't sustain it. It's really a shame. Gilbert wanted kids to learn something from playing with his toys. He was a multitalented genius--aside from being a brilliant businessman and inventor, he had a medical degree from Yale and was an accomplished athlete, setting several world records and winning an olympic gold medal. And he treated his employees well. He kept unions out of his shop because he felt like he could do more for his employees than the union could, so why not give them better benefits and let them save the union dues?

We sure could use someone else like him. I dunno what he'd do for the hobby, but whatever he chose to do with his company, it'd be good for this country.

[prewardude]

Yeah, I'd like to see Lionel do some more Flyer stuff myself. It seems a shame that they aren't doing a whole lot with the Flyer trademark. If I'm not mistaken, Lionel still owns the Ives trademark, too. The only Ives item they're producing are the 0-27 track clips (just enough to keep the trademark legally alive, I assume). When it comes to reproductions, MTH has it all over Lionel, but they can't use the Ives or AF logos on their products because Lionel owns the TMs. What a waste. It seems that the world's premiere toy train company could do a whole lot more with their product line than they are. After all, if there isn't still money to be made in Standard or S gauge, how do you explain the success of American Models, or MTH's Tinplate Traditions line? I guess Lionel would rather make Elvis and Greendale sets [:(!]. I've vented enough for one post...

[3railguy]

S gauge has never been as popular as O gauge. I guess maybe because it's priced closer to O gauge than it is to HO so people spend a little more on O gauge.

[Dave Farquhar]

The Ives trademark is contested. MTH is using it on repro Ives locos and rolling stock, and when I checked the patent and trademark office's website, I found a filing that listed it as an abandoned Lionel trademark, and another one from MTH registering it, both dating to the 1999-2000 time period.

So it looks like Lionel didn't protect the Ives mark well enough and MTH grabbed it.

But Ives' heart and soul died a long, long time ago. Harry Ives died before his time, just 8 years after his company was forced into its unnecessary liquidation.

[prewardude]

Thanks for the info, Dave. I didn't know about the Ives name being contested.