3 Rails Cars on 2 Rail Track?

[Anonymous]

I just purchased my first O scale engine. I decided to go with O scale 2 rail DC.

My question is, can I use 3 rail cars/rolling stock on the the 2 rail layout?

I assume I'll have to switch the couplers to match up to me engine, but other than that, is there a problem with the trucks, track gage, etc.?

[lionelsoni]

The biggest problem is that the wheels of 3-rail cars are almost always connected together electrically and will short out your 2-rail track. This is particularly a problem with trucks which have metal transoms and side frames. Cheaper modern trucks with plastic sideframes could be modified, I imagine, by cutting the axles in two and splicing them back together with plastic rod or tubing.

However, you may have more of a problem with the wheel profiles, not because of the number of rails, but because scale track uses much smaller rail than tinplate track. The tinplate wheels are very wide and the flanges very deep, not close to scale size. Prewar and earlier wheels ran loose on the axles and did not maintain an accurate gauge either.

At the San Diego Railroad Museum, I noticed a number of Lionel pieces adapted for the O-scale layout. You might be able to get some advice from their members on ways to do it.

[ben10ben]

You can run 2 rail cars on 3 rail track, but not 3 rail cars on 2 rail track. 3 rail cars normally have a solid metal axle on the wheels with no insulation, so power can flow freely through both wheels. 2 rail cars normally have at least one wheel isolated, as this same condition on 2 rail track would cause a dead short.

You need to change out the trucks for scale trucks that are already insulated.

[Dr.Fu-Manchu]

The [}:)] Doctor is in !!! dgoodlander , you are asking a good question! To answer you,
yes you will have change couplers and trucks both. Because O scale two rail uses
slightly different rails(scale instead of tinplate) the wheels, such as Lionel will not
work. The flanges are smaller in O scale, larger for tinplate. Also, tinplate uses larger
wheels than O scale two rail. Otherwise, the track gauge is the same. Good Luck!
Till My Next Missive, I Remain The Humble, Yet Strangly [}:)] Doctor !!!

[DSchmitt]

3 rail cars can be converted to 2 rail. Some conversions are very easy.

Atllas makes both 2 and 3 rail versions of their cars. K-Line makes 2-rail trucks that fit most of their cars. Atlas and Athearn as well as others make 2-rali trucks that can be used forconversions.

I have converted K-Line cabooses, and box cars, MTH gondolas and a MTH crane, a K-Line crane and a MTH depressed center flat car (4 trucks)

[Big_Boy_4005]

My advice is simple. If you want 2 rail, buy 2 rail, and save yourself a lot of trouble and additional cost of conversion. The others have pointed out most of the issues, however there is still the issue of couplers. For 2 rail it is best to stick with body mounted couplers instead of the oversized truck mounted couplers that are standard on 3 rail cars.

Both Atlas and Weaver sell their cars in both 2 and 3 rail versions. They do this for a reason. Unfortunately if you like products made by Lionel, MTH, K-line, or Williams you will have to learn to convert.

In our last conversation about command systems we never got into the issues of 2 rail VS 3 rail. It seemed clear that you had chosen to go with 2 rail, which is fine. I'm not suggesting that you reconsider, but you are just starting to see some of the complications involved. On the other hand, 2 railers have been dealing with these things for years. The only difference is, that there is a lot more interesting stuff made for 3 rail, than ever before.

Decisions, decisions!!!! [swg]

[Anonymous]

Thanks guys, and Elliot. My wife always said I did things the hard way, guess 2 rail DC is just another example of that (HA!)

I don't mind working on converting cars. My biggest concern was track gauge. If I can add couplers and new trucks, no problem. Keeps me busy on train night.

I had a hard time tracking down my first engine as well. I finally located one at Norm's O Scale. I found him on the web at: http://www.normsoscale.com/. Nice gentlemen. Apparently Atlas only makes limited runs of their engines and most of the SD-35 Chessie engines were taken. Norm came through in the end though.

Thanks Again!

[DSchmitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

My advice is simple. If you want 2 rail, buy 2 rail, and save yourself a lot of trouble and additional cost of conversion. The others have pointed out most of the issues, however there is still the issue of couplers. For 2 rail it is best to stick with body mounted couplers instead of the oversized truck mounted couplers that are standard on 3 rail cars.

Both Atlas and Weaver sell their cars in both 2 and 3 rail versions. They do this for a reason. Unfortunately if you like products made by Lionel, MTH, K-line, or Williams you will have to learn to convert.


Decisions, decisions!!!! [swg]

Generally I agree, but there are some nice cars in 3 rail that are not available in 2 rail as well as a lot of 2 rail that aren't in 3 rail. While some 3-rail cars are very difficult to convert others are very easy.

Incidently K-Lines new camp cars (3-rail) are designed so that Kadee body mount couplers can be applied.

The K-Line Shay will be available in both 2-rail and 3-rail (the 2-rail won't have sound). A "brown" Western Pacific K-Lines bay window caboose will be available in 2-rail later this year. The 3-rail version is already available. The 2-railer will have scale smoke stack and marker lights. Both have correct WP numbers unlike the K-Line red WP caboose on which they are based. Contact the Western Depot in Yuba City CA for information.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Sounds like K-line is really coming around. Atlas and Weaver are Kadee ready for the most part.

I just went and looked at some of my scale cars from Loinel, and the look like they would be fairly easy to convert, but the cost is probably going to be something like $15 per car. In most cases you would be left with the die cast sprung trucks, which you might be able to sell to offset the new 2 rail trucks and Kadees.

Engines are going to be the key. It doesn't seem like they are making as many non powered engines as they used to. The new MTH stuff strikes me as a bit of a waste if the DCS board has to come out for DCC, or does Mike expect 2 railers to slave their DCC to his DCS the same way TMCC is run with DCS.

There are options, and anything can be done for money. There may be a reason why not many people have 2 rail O in their basements.[swg]

By the way, most manufacturers charge a litle extra for the 2 rail versions of a given item. Don't forget to check eBay for 2 rail stuff, it's out there.

[DSchmitt]

By making their cars easier to convert to 2-rail the 3-rail scale manufacturers expand their market. It may also bring people who have rejected the scale because of the "toy like" third rail into O scale, increasing the market further.

Atlas appears to be commited to both 2 and 3 rail. Many of the other manufacturers are "testing the waters" of 2-rail including offering 2-rail locos in small quanties. MTH made some 2-rail locos years ago now they are doing it again. Williams if offering their Little Joe both ways.

$15 per car to convert from 3 to 2 rail is a lower percentage of the cost of the car, than I spent to convert about 900 N scale cars to Microtrains trucks/couplers.

3-rail still has the advantage in automation and sound, but electronics is bringing many of these features to 2-rail. Personnally I don't care for sound and don't need the automation either. Thats my choice. Others feel differently.

I prefer 2-rail O for myself, but I am still impressed by the nice 3-rail layouts I have visited.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Just to let everyone know where I'm coming from on this topic, I have tried most scales, but have settled on 3 rail O. I made that decision 20 years ago. However, for about 6 years I was also a member of a 2 rail O club. I never went out and bought any trains to run on the club layout, but I was kind of familiar with the club equipment. Keep in mind that this club was over 50 years old then. Some of the trains had been around a very long time back then, and by today's standards were not very good runners.

Because of the club's hours of operation, they came to rely heavily on some of the Weaver engines, and mainly Weaver cars. All of that was before Atlas made it's move into O about 10 years ago.

That $15 figure is just an educated guess, based on $5 per truck and $2.50 per coupler. Having been in N for a short time, I know it is possible to spend more on good trucks and couplers than on the car itself. At least the cars are still more than the replacement parts for O.

3 rail has come a long way toward realism since so many manufacturers have given Lionel some competition. There are even some good alternatives to traditional 3 rail track. Gargraves has been around for years, and with Ross and Curtis switches, is a very nice looking system. If you are willing to spend a little more, Atlas makes some of the best looking track ever made for 3 rail. You almost forget the center rail is there. MTH's RealTrax is pretty good too.

The way I see it this whole 2 rail - 3 rail business has gotten a little blurred in the last 10 to 15 years. The 2 rail business is fairly clear, but making scale 3 rail trains makes the choice more difficult. The truth is that I have changed my trains, but not my track. Scale trains, on 3 rail track, with realistic scenery and operation. That's the plan, and I'm sticking to it.

[ben10ben]

A good set of scale trucks now runs anywhere from $12-15, and Kadee couplers are about $3 a set, so you could be looking at as much as $18 per car.

By the way, cars converted to O scale can usually still run on O gauge track. The scale wheels won't always work all that well on tubular track, but they will work. Kadee couplers will mate with standard O gauge knuckle couplers, although it looks sort of funny.

[lionelsoni]

If I'm not mistaken, American O scale uses a slightly narrower gauge than tinplate does. The tinplate gauge of 1 1/4 inches (about 32 mm) is of course 5 scale feet in 48:1 O scale. When I was young, there was a "Q" gauge of 1 3/16 inches, which scales to 4 feet 9 inches, used by the scale modelers. I have heard that that is now obsolete and replaced by "Proto 48", with the last smidgen (1/2 inch) of gauge error eliminated.

These differences would seem to be negligible when it comes to running scale pieces on tinplate track, which is not very precisely made to start with. However, I found that my 773 Hudson would frequently derail its trailing truck, which would fall between the rails on switches. This truck, it turns out, uses the same narrow scale wheels as the prewar 700E, gauged for scale track. Apparently Lionel thought (incorrectly) that there would be no trouble with this in a trailing truck. I wound up regauging the wheels to 1 1/4 inches, which fixed the problem.

[Anonymous]

An update on the cost. The 2 DC is cheaper than the 3 rail, TMCC version. I would assume the difference being the electronics in the TMCC engine. I have price shopped quite extensively over the web and some dealers are actually selling the 2 rail and 3 rail versions for the same price. That would be both engines with TMCC.

The Atlas engine I found was $349.00.

Thanks for the info on the trucks and couplers. Right now $15 to $18 a car doesn't sound too bad.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Unless you've won the lottery, be careful and shop. You may be able to do better than that. I have set a limit of $250 for 3 rail TMCC diesels, and I have found more than I can afford to buy on eBay. $350 is pretty good, but you may be able to do better. Are you going to stick with diesels and fairly modern cars? Of course, have fun!![8D]

[Anonymous]

I was kind of forced to pay the list price, there are none around. I missed the advanced order opportunity so........

I did see it on the Peco Div web site for $275 but of course he had sold the last one. Thanks and I'll keep my eye on ebay.

I did check out the Weaver web site, that stuff likes nice.

[Anonymous]

I noticed that OGR Forum has a 2 rail section opening up at their site which may be of some value.

Bill Sherwood