Help with tmcc!

[Anonymous]

HI Red

I have no idea what kind of circuit protection the TPC400 has. I would think there are a lot more qualified people around here to answer that question then me. I've been collecting for about 17 years but I just built my first table for a layout. So I'm learning as I go here.I certainly can understand your apprehension about letting your kids alone with full power applied to the track. It's something I'm just starting to get comfortable with myself. I have this thought that soon as I turn my back the train is going to take off 1000 MPH and launch off the end of the table. LOL so far it hasn't happened to me or anyone else that I know of So I think its safe!!
I am a firm believer that if someone sticks their hand in the fire and tells me its hot I'm not going to try to prove them wrong. If multiple people say surge protection between the track and PM-1 or TPC 400, whichever the case may be is the ticket to componant protection, Then thats what I will do also. Good Luck and have fun.
Jim B.

[Anonymous]

Little Pig,

Does the TPC 400 have a better circuit breaker? What about a ZW? How does that compare? I am considering the variable voltage ability of the ZW since I have a shelf layout and I am nervous about letting my kids run it with 18 volts of power running through it. Does that make sense?

[Anonymous]

Call me Mr. Spike Suppressor. [:D][8D][:D]

Spike suppression circuitry could save the equipment in the event of a derailment. Even with a TPC400 instead of a PM-1.

Tony

[Anonymous]

Good Morning

Its funny this topic is still hanging in there. I bought a 135W Powerhouse and a135w Powermaster on ebay for $36 and some change. I was amazed at how much power the 135W brick seems to have. There is very little to no voltage drop no matter how much load I put on it so far. But back to the PM-1, The one I got on ebay(well the second one)was good which amazed me. But I was here running tonite with the one I repaired and experienced a derailment and I hit the halt button and it only dropped down to 11v. I got this sick feeling knowing what that ment. Anyway so I fried the one I fixed, Thank god for the extra that I just bought!!! My cure for this problem is going to be a TPC 400. Lionel must be making a bunch of money selling replacement PM-1s to an unimformed public.
Dale is absolutely correct, the voltage spike takes place within milliseconds and the voltage generated in AC circuits during a short can be astronomical. Solid state componants don't stand a chance.

[Buckeye Riveter]

Good points RedCaboose. Why haven't I fried mine? I have had derailments that cut off the power.

[Anonymous]

[:)] Dale,

Where have you been! Unfortunately, I trashed the first Powermaster, and the second is going back to Lionel tomorrow.

I am not an electrician, but I followed your description of the problem somewhat. Your last sentence forms the basis for my ongoing concerns with TMCC. If I am cooking these Powermasters within 35 minutes of receiving them, then what can prevent me from doing this over and over again? I took the suggestion of a few on this thread and put a single channel circuit breakersin my shopping cart from Scott's Odds n Ends and now I am not sure what to do. Of greater concern is why everyone does not have this problem or is it something in my own setup and wiring. Any suggestions on a fast blow fuse or circuit breaker that might work? Why aren't all Powermasters frying if these have inadeqate protection as you suggest.

[Anonymous]

Maybe I am the one who was mentioned on the OGR Forum. I have repaired several PowerMasters, some for myself and some for others. Please contact me if you would like me to repair your unit.

Dale Manquen
[e-mail]
www.manquen.net

One of the design problems with the PowerMaster is that the short circuit sensing only works on one half of the 60 Hertz AC cycle. The current sensor measures the current on only half the cycle, but it kills the power for one full cycle. I believe that the problem is that the current during a short can be 'infinite' during the first unmeasured half cycle - before the current sensor ever knows there is a problem - and the FETs can be damaged instantly by this large current.

Most fuses and circuit breakers are WAY too slow to be of any useful protection with this very quick problem. We are talking about 8 thousandths of a second here.

[Anonymous]

Spanky:

You can do that with TMCC, too, if you're using a ZW or KW or other transformer with a handle. And you can do it with a TPC or PowerMaster, provided you're willing to let the command equipped engine go slower than it would if the voltage was up to 18 V.

Tony

[spankybird]

I have to admit, I said this tongue in cheek [:-^]. I have been using DCS over 1 ½ years without any problems with variable channels or fix channels.[swg]

The TIU does have a surge protector built in. I run my TIU on a fix power supply (RS) and have all four channels programmed on fix voltage. When I run my trains on conventional mode, I pu***he handles on the ZW, like in the old days.

BTW, I can still run an engine in commanded mode and a conventional one on the same track at the same time this way.[:D]


tom

[Anonymous]

Spanky:

The DCS TIU is supposed to have built-in surge suppression, however, I've heard of TIU variable output channels dying on people.

Adding DCS might not solve the problem & just make life more complicated.

Tony

[spankybird]

maybe you should try DCS and run the TMCC thru it.[:O][:O][:P][;)][%-)]

[Anonymous]

Red Caboose:

Another thing you might try is to add a surge suppressor to your layout. Not one between the wall outlet & the tranformer, but one between the transformer & your tracks.

Scotts Odds & Ends offers these suppressors & they just might save you another Powermaster.

Tony

[Buckeye Riveter]

Redcaboose, I really can't diagnose your problem, but I have used TMCC for over 4 years and have derailed it seems many times and nothing has fried or smoked. I was fanatical about hooking up the positive and negatives just like the instruction books indicated. I used normal wire with spade type connectors.

I hope you get Lionel or a good dealer to help you with your problem. My dealer, Davis Trains in Cincinnati gave me TMCC lessons and I wired it just like they did in their store with the same components.

Good luck!

[eZAK]

Red you can do what ben says or what I prefer is to go with a 10a resettable breaker.
Such as but not limited to: http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Filter

[Anonymous]

Ben,

I printed out your email and will do that. Thanks for the advice. I am still amazed at the sensitivity of the Powermaster though. I would have thought that the new ones would include a circuit breaker that is much quicker.

I mean, a derailment has to be the most planned for event when they are designing these, right?

[ben10ben]

Here's my suggestion:

After you call Lionel and get a replacement powermaster, go down to Radio Shack and buy a round glass fuse holder of your choice, and a good supply of 7-10A 32V fastblow fuses. Place the holder between your track and powerhouse, and then put one of the fuses in it. The fuse will blow within 1.5 seconds whenever you have a derailment, and sacrifice itself for your powermaster. You can probably find switches cheaper at an automotive parts store than they are at Radio Shack, but just make sure you get fast blow fuses.

[Anonymous]

Just an update here, but its unbelievable. I bought a new Powermaster since the old one fried and since it was over a year old Lionel wouldn't replace it. OK, not a big problem.

So the new one arrives today, I set it up, everything is going fine when I have a derailment with a command equipped engine and the circuit breaker trips on the Powerhouse. I fix the derailment and put the engine back on and it works fine. Now, when I put a conventional engine back on, it goes racing around the track again at full speed. Same problem all over again! I fried my replacement in less than one hour! What is going on? Do I need to get a new brick? Is that circuit not quick enough? Or do I just have really bad luck. If I can't have a simple dreailment without frying my powerhouses, I need to find a new hobby.

[Anonymous]

I recently repaired my PM1 with a similar problem. The componants in question are attached to the aluminium heat sink. The part # is MTP33N10E. They are about 5 bucks each. Changing then requires PC board soldering experience, if mine was a normal example then they really loaded them up on the solder joint. I must have spent over 45 min with a solder sucker getting a little at a time till i finally cut them off and used a 175W gun to get rid of the terminals left in the board.
Make sure you measure the height of the componants from the board before you remove the old ones or the hole in the heat sink wont line up with the new ones.
Good Luck and have fun.
James W. Barrett
( no relation to OGR Jim Barrett)

[Anonymous]

Bill:

Since the tech support folks don't take phone calls on Mondays & Tuesdays, you got a receptionist telling you they won't fix your PowerMaster. Talk to the tech support guys directly on Wednesday.

Generally, I've read of many instances where if you talk to the tech support folks directly, they'll fix it/replace it without respect to its warrantee status. That doesn't mean they won't give you the same response if you talk to them directly.

HTH

Tony

[Anonymous]

Tony, Ben,

I just spoke with Lionel. They said they won't repair anything after the warrantee period is over. My Powermaster is over 1 year old. Would you be so kind as to pass along the name of the person on the OGRR thread that was repairing these? My sincerest thanks to you for the help. I'm in withdrawal without the trains!

[Anonymous]

Bill:

Email Lionel tech support tomorrow. They only anwer their phones Wed - Fri. They'll answer email 5 days a week, though.

Tony

[Anonymous]

Ben,

Thanks. I am just about going aout of my mind trying to solve this annoying problem. I will call Lionel tomorrow and see what they say, if not, I'll post again and ask for your help in locating the thread at OGRR.

Sincerely,

Bill Knox

[ben10ben]

This is a pretty well documented problem with the powermaster, espcially when used with the bricks. The breaker in the powermaster is excellent, but when it doesn't trip, it will fry before the Powerhouse breaker trips.

There was a thread on OGR about replacing the MOSFETS used to control the voltage. If I'm not mistaken, an OGR forum member offered to replace these if they went(causing symptoms like full voltage to the track always) for a very modest fee. Call Lionel first, and see if they'll repair it for free. If not, I'll look up the thread.

[nblum]

It sounds like the Powermaster is burned out from the short. Lionel may replace this with a newer version of the Powermaster less susceptible to shorts if you contact them. Some of the earlier Powermasters from the mid-1990s were easily toasted.

[Anonymous]

Marty,

Thanks for the reply. I did change it to conventional, and it slows the constant speed down a bit, but it's still at a constant rate of speed and it still gets no response from the CAB-1. Everything is working like before, but the engines are not responding to the commands from the CAB-1. I also run some command engines from time to time, and I don't change the setting. I leave it on command and this works for both command and non command engines.

[MartyE]

If running a non command engine, I think the powermaster needs to be set to conventional...other wise it will put out the full voltage. Try that lt us know.

[Anonymous]

I have a simple TMCC setup (Cab-1, 135 W brick, conventional command base and command base) Everything has been running smoothly for a year. Recently, I had a derailment and had to reset the circuit breaker on my 135W brick. Now, here is the problem: When I put a non TMCC train on the track it goes at full speed around the track with no repsonse from my CAB-1. The base unit is set to CMD & Run. The red light on the is blinking so I know the unit is getting signals, and the green light is on, so I know that it is getting power but the engines are not responding to any commands from the CAb-1. This has never happened before, but it sounds like I am missing one thing and I can't figure it out. Can anyone help?