I was just rereading Rodger Carp's 101 Classic Toy Trains, in which Roger reviews his criteria for inclusion or exclusion of certain models in his compilation, all of which were chosen from the postwar period which roughly extends to the end of the 1950's. I would like Rodger to apply the same criteria to Prewar trains which would make for a wonderful companion volume. That aside, since CTT considers contemporary trains generically as classics by their inclusion in their coverage, are there any such trains that at some future date, ( say 40-50 years from now) that will be considered by some future Rodger Carp, a classic?
Any candidates, predictions?
The first thing that came to mind was some of the new Lionel accessories ( Rodger included the postwar items as well as transformers). Some of the newer S gauge models came to mind as well. What defines quality and innovation currently. Although I am into postwar and prewar, I like to keep an eye on contemporary O and S scale, so my curiosity was prompted by Rodger's book which I really recommend.
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
engines with TMCC in them especially now since we have Legacy also proto sound or proto 2 . and it may not be 40 - 50 years on the above I see it as in maybe another 10 - 15 years these engines will start being considered classic heck my NYC GP-9 is almost a classic seeing it was made 15 years ago so with that said anything from the fundimention period I guess is a classic ??
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
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rtraincollector engines with TMCC in them especially now since we have Legacy also proto sound or proto 2 . and it may not be 40 - 50 years on the above I see it as in maybe another 10 - 15 years these engines will start being considered classic heck my NYC GP-9 is almost a classic seeing it was made 15 years ago so with that said anything from the fundimention period I guess is a classic ??
I could see Fundimensions being collectable classics in a collecting category of it's own as well, as well as TMCC as well as Proto One.. The Coke set comes to mind.My son started out with the early Atari games etc, and these are becoming collectable, like Pong etc. I carefully boxed them when he was done with them..Comparatively they are already "antiques."
speaking of coke set I just happen to have that but the box is in rough shape ( bought it that way as the seller really didn't show how rough it was) but its okay.
Actually told wife it was her set so thats where that stands lol along with my only Marx set actually is hers also .
Specialty items will always remain classics as long as there are collectors seeking them. A few that come to my mind from recent Lionel production runs are the Stourbridge Lion, the John Bull and the newer Hudsons with all the electro gizmos.
The MPC market is growing because the boomers are giving way to gen-x as far as "who has the disposable income" is concerned. I was born after the sale of the old Lionel to General Mills so I never knew the original company. I saw MPC in the stores back in the 70's and 80's and those were the trains that made the biggest impression on me. In recent years I finally got the James Gang set, Spirit of 76 caboose and CN N5c caboose I always wanted. But those were about all the MPC items I "never got" so I'm not so sure now how much MPC will pique my interest in the future.
An area of collectability that's likely to grow will be "cheap" and "starter" items. How many of us routinely buy from these categories so we can "kitbash" or "modify" for our own purposes? I do it all the time. As a matter of fact, I just started another such project this week. So I suspect that as the supply of Marx 6" tin cars and Lionel Scout locos goes down due to modification, restoration or salvaging, the value of those in original condition will continue to rise until rusty cars are one day worth what the mint versions sell for today. Just look at the prewar market, it's gone through the same thing. The fewer there are the higher the price.
Becky
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
There is an old saying that goes something like "Anything made to be a collectable isn't".
It's going to take time to see whether that holds true. Right now, we see the prices of many of the "instant collectables" of the modern era way below their peak value. In some cases, they are below their intitial street prices. On the other hand, prices on early MPC, while nowhere near their postwar counterparts, are climbing. (I don't consider trains to be an investment, however the prices are indicative of demand)
Penny Trains Specialty items will always remain classics as long as there are collectors seeking them. A few that come to my mind from recent Lionel production runs are the Stourbridge Lion, the John Bull and the newer Hudsons with all the electro gizmos. The MPC market is growing because the boomers are giving way to gen-x as far as "who has the disposable income" is concerned. I was born after the sale of the old Lionel to General Mills so I never knew the original company. I saw MPC in the stores back in the 70's and 80's and those were the trains that made the biggest impression on me. In recent years I finally got the James Gang set, Spirit of 76 caboose and CN N5c caboose I always wanted. But those were about all the MPC items I "never got" so I'm not so sure now how much MPC will pique my interest in the future. An area of collectability that's likely to grow will be "cheap" and "starter" items. How many of us routinely buy from these categories so we can "kitbash" or "modify" for our own purposes? I do it all the time. As a matter of fact, I just started another such project this week. So I suspect that as the supply of Marx 6" tin cars and Lionel Scout locos goes down due to modification, restoration or salvaging, the value of those in original condition will continue to rise until rusty cars are one day worth what the mint versions sell for today. Just look at the prewar market, it's gone through the same thing. The fewer there are the higher the price. Becky
One thing I noticed is that the less expensive toy trains,in their day, particularly Hafner, can be difficult to find as they were considered more disposable, or prone to being trashed. I noticed Unique Art Trains are at a premium cost while being lithographed tinplate. The RI Unique Art diesels ranked #71 in Rodger's book, as well as Kusan etc. making the list. interesting to see how the initial comparative cost of a toy train at the time of purchase does not necessarily equate to their long term rarity = value.
The main item that I think of for new products being "classic" down the road are the Lionel Dockside engines. They seem to be well built, aren't too terribly expensive, look nice, and come in quite a few roadnames. I think the variety of roadnames is important, like in the 6464 boxcars. It's the quest of a complete set that makes it fun to collect things.
Maybe the original CW80s will turn out to be highly collectible.
J White
And it's funny too how some companies' lithography commands a higher value than others. Unique's litho isn't exactly great on many items but those trains often get higher prices than the better jobs like the diesels you show here.
Maybe "market status" has more to do with value than it should? To clarify, if one fool goes out and overpays for an item that doesn't deserve it and the next guy comes along and uses that sale price to set the value for his item, it throws the whole system off kilter and soon enough a 2 dollar caboose is worth thousands. So the next newbie comes along and just assumes that the high prices he's seeing must be "normal" and ends up perpetuating the cycle. I mean, seriously, is a 700E really worth as much as a midsize? Not to me, I'll buy the Williams!
I really hope the Coke set becomes a classic because I bought one when they first came out and I have never opened the cellophane wrapper. My wife and kids think it is a piece of junk and believe I am crazy for keeping it.
Maybe "market status" has more to do with value than it should? To clarify, if one fool goes out and overpays for an item that doesn't deserve it and the next guy comes along and uses that sale price to set the value for his item, it throws the whole system off kilter and soon enough a 2 dollar caboose is worth thousands.
If people only purchased items that appeal to them, and refused to pay more than they felt the item was worth, then that never could happen. I am certain the book referenced in the beginning of the thread is an interesting and entertaining read. However, I don't think I need anybody else to tell me what to like. Does anyone?There is an inference that "future classics" will have a high dollar value. I wouldn't bet on that. The number of folks interested in toy trains is likely to dwindle, making prices drop. I don't think about future resale when I make a purchase. My investments are elsewhere.
The way I read the topic was what would you guess to be concidered a classic in the future which is modern today or not concidered a classic yet. not what will bering the best resale value in the future which it seems this has turned into. Wallyworld was just wonder for the fun of it I do believe.
The book did not use a financial criteria for inclusions of classics. It was mostly the quality, innovation, decoration...that sort of thing. It is not an investment guide. I should have made that clearer. That.s why I asked "What defines quality and innovation currently.?"
35 years ago, a TCA member advised me to keep everything original and that the value of the trains would always increase. It turned out to be bad advice. I have a Lionel 75th anniversary set that is still new in the box with the original plastic wrap on it. I paid $112 for it 36 years ago, and it is not worth much more than that today. I bought a Williams 25th anniversary TCA set NIB and it is probably not worth more today than what I paid for it. The manufacturers have come out with some really nice engines and trains in the past 35 years which has caused a lack of interest in trains like these. Even the prewar and postwar trains have lost value due to the newer stuff being so slick.
Bruce Baker
It was a mistake posting this thread.assuming that some others had read the book, 101 Classic Toy Trains. I was not referring to investment value. I was referring to what makes a classic train, not what makes a classic investment. Cest la vie.
Well, to me a classic has to be representative of the larger era in which it originated.
The early Lionel's like the motorized gondola I don't really count as classic in regards to their monetary value, but rather because they're indicitive of what early efforts to develop the toy line looked like in 1900. Similarly, the 392E has the unmistakable aire of the 1920's: jazzy, art deco and sleek. In the decades that followed, plastics were what was new and exciting and the era of the 1950's was all about what you could do with that material. However I believe the starter set locos like the scouts and cars like the "plug door" boxcar are more indicitive of the post-war era than bigger, more expensive items like the Super Chief and Lionel Berkshire. While both of those would be called classics by most, myself included, it's the less detailed starter sets that pop into my mind when someone says "postwar".
The problem with defining an "era" is that you have to be at least 5 years past the end of it before you recognize that you were in a different one to begin with. We call the years between 1970 and 1986 the "MPC era". But after that we've been calling everything "modern". I would suggest that we should now start calling the era of toy train production between 1986 and 2001 as the "Pre-9-11 era" because toy train production since 2001 isn't the same as it was in the last quarter of the 20th century. Similarly, toy train consumption is different than it was 10 years ago too. The LHS is giving way more and more often to the Net-tailer. More of us have less cash to spend on our hobbies. It's just not the same as it was back in the 90's when Lionel and MTH started going head to head and grew the market with innovation after innovation. While it's true that they're still innovating, it just seems like more often than not the innovations are ever further out of reach for more and more of us.
What's a modern classic? I would say the train that's affordable, looks good and says something about the year it was made. With that in mind, is it the electronics that make a 2011 loco a modern classic? I doubt it. To me classics also have to have the kind of intrinsic value that can only be aquired through hours of operation and enjoyment. And also through pining. Many of us call trains classic because we never got them but always wanted them. So to sum up, I'd say the modern classics are the coolest things in the catalogs. And if you can figure that out, you'll do better than Warren Buffet!
I would suggest that we should now start calling the era of toy train production between 1986 and 2001 as the "Pre-9-11 era" because toy train production since 2001 isn't the same as it was in the last quarter of the 20th century. Similarly, toy train consumption is different than it was 10 years ago too.
Toy Trains and/or their manufacturing have absolutely nothing to do with 9-11.
We divide Lionel train eras into prewar and postwar because manufacturing was interrupted, and Lionel took the break to make significant changes to their product lines. There was no interruption of the manufacturing of toy trains or product changes related to 9-11.
Penny Trains Well, to me a classic has to be representative of the larger era in which it originated. The early Lionel's like the motorized gondola I don't really count as classic in regards to their monetary value, but rather because they're indicitive of what early efforts to develop the toy line looked like in 1900. Similarly, the 392E has the unmistakable aire of the 1920's: jazzy, art deco and sleek. In the decades that followed, plastics were what was new and exciting and the era of the 1950's was all about what you could do with that material. However I believe the starter set locos like the scouts and cars like the "plug door" boxcar are more indicitive of the post-war era than bigger, more expensive items like the Super Chief and Lionel Berkshire. While both of those would be called classics by most, myself included, it's the less detailed starter sets that pop into my mind when someone says "postwar". The problem with defining an "era" is that you have to be at least 5 years past the end of it before you recognize that you were in a different one to begin with. We call the years between 1970 and 1986 the "MPC era". But after that we've been calling everything "modern". I would suggest that we should now start calling the era of toy train production between 1986 and 2001 as the "Pre-9-11 era" because toy train production since 2001 isn't the same as it was in the last quarter of the 20th century. Similarly, toy train consumption is different than it was 10 years ago too. The LHS is giving way more and more often to the Net-tailer. More of us have less cash to spend on our hobbies. It's just not the same as it was back in the 90's when Lionel and MTH started going head to head and grew the market with innovation after innovation. While it's true that they're still innovating, it just seems like more often than not the innovations are ever further out of reach for more and more of us. What's a modern classic? I would say the train that's affordable, looks good and says something about the year it was made. With that in mind, is it the electronics that make a 2011 loco a modern classic? I doubt it. To me classics also have to have the kind of intrinsic value that can only be aquired through hours of operation and enjoyment. And also through pining. Many of us call trains classic because we never got them but always wanted them. So to sum up, I'd say the modern classics are the coolest things in the catalogs. And if you can figure that out, you'll do better than Warren Buffet! Becky
I think anything with a historical connection like centennial sets or war sets seem to have a unique level of decoration and combination of cars that cane be considered innovative. The K Line PE and CNSM interurban are colorful and rare examples that have not had a equivalent since perhaps Voltamp for intercity transit.. I don't include local streetcars in this category but the Bachman Peter Witt cars raised the bar for streetcar quality compared to Atlas, MTH or Lionel. That is an innovative product.. I think what most do not think of is not so much in our era, pre and postwar but rather domestic products actually made by the manufacturer in their own facilities versus subcontracting them to offshore contractors. This to me defines a clear delineation for our era. While accessories were farmed out especially by AF in the postwar era, that was pretty much it. If they proved successful, they were usually brought in house. In a sense we are talking apples and oranges in comparing the "offshore" era to the post and prewar eras. Some of the Lionel "action cars" of the modern era are certainly innovative, like the "hotbox " car, the Coors train, etc. I think the remaking of postwar classics generally are simply "offshore" variations. Certainly the Flynn's New Marx are modern era classics and they were made domestically. Some of the smaller manufacturer's are overlooked which made some beautiful models like Pride Lines, etc. Some pre and postwar classics appreciated in value some are still affordable if you compare costs to contemporary offshore production so I don't think the financial angle works as it is market driven as you mentioned. Rodger's criteria worked for me.
I have read the book, and I get the spirit of the post. But something can still be a classic and an investment, although to be a classic it doesn't need to be an investment.
I think, for certain, that the MTH Subway sets will become classics. They are already fetching top dollar, the outlook for there being more made is mixed because of the loss of the license with MTA.
The sets appeal not only to train geeks, but geeks like me who are tried and true New Yorkers thru and thru. They have been purchased simply to display, and in researching you tube I see young guys, old guys, and kids collecting them.
In fact, I already think they're already classics. The price point, even on the secondary market, is still good. A Worlds Fair set at $700-800 is still less than a new Lionel subway set. Not only are these sets fun, but with the auto run and station announcement features, they are today's equal to the milk car of yester-year.
While I wish I had started collecting them 10 years ago, that's like saying I wish I had gotten into the stock market in 1990. I'm still jumping in, and I'm having fun, and someday, I predict some else will be having fun with my subway sets. That's the definition of classic to me.
That's a very good point. Subway and rapid transit type train sets have been overlooked by the industry since it started. Trolleys and interurbans were of course produced by just about everybody, but commuter transit systems of the 60's and beyond weren't produced except for the Budd cars and passenger/diesel units like the NJtransit F class set. Kids don't see milk men anymore but they do ride the subways and other commuter trains in most major cities. European and Japanese manufacturers have been in this market for years but MTH was the first to delve in here in the US. I'll go with those who believe the subway sets could be called a modern classic.
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