All,
In a few months I am moving to Japan and will be faced with having the Subject line dilemma. I have two newer CW-80 transformers and I am wondering if the lower voltage and Hz will negatively impact the transformers and ability to run my trains. I do not operate any trains with TMCC, Legacy, or Protosound; I have all conventional locomotives with basic whistles and horns with the exception of one locomotive with Trainsounds.
When we lived in Germany I had to buy a transformer that lowered the voltage from 220 to 110 so we could operate our US electronics, but this is the first time I will face the opposite.
I appreciate any help you all can provide.
Thanks,
Joe
100 VAC 50Hz should not pose an issue for the transformers. You might get a slightly lower voltage from them for a given throttle setting.
There have been reports on the forum that the CW-80 does not work properly at 50 hertz. Do you know what frequency is used at your Japanese destination? Northeastern Japan (including Tokyo) uses 50 hertz, southwestern Japan (including Nagoya, Osaka, and Hiroshima) uses 60 hertz.
Actual transformers rated for 120 volts (or thereabouts) and 60 Hz should be fine on 100 volts at either frequency, with somewhat lower output voltage being the only drawback, as noted above. It's the modern phase-control or other electronic "transformers" that are problematical.
Bob Nelson
I retract part of my answer, upon research it appears that the CW-80 doesn't like 50HZ at all!
Gentlemen,
Thanks for the prompt replies. I will be living near Tokyo where it will be 50 Hz so I am now a bit concerned about my CW-80s. In your research did it specify if the problems were with the original CW-80 that has had other problems or with all of them? If you do not recall or have that information readily available, I will be doing some research on my own.
Regards,
..........Wayne..........
We have or have had some Europeans and other 50-hertz denizens on the forum who may chime in and give us a definitive answer; but my recollection is that the problem is general to both old and new CW-80s. This would make sense, since it uses the phase control technique to vary the voltage put out. Phase control reduces the voltage by connecting the output of a real transformer to the output terminals part way through each half-cycle of the sinusoidal waveform. This would require different timing at 50 hertz, where the half-cycle is 10 milliseconds long, than at 60 hertz, where the half-cycle is only 8 1/3 milliseconds long. Of course, one could design the thing to sense which power frequency is in use and alter its behavior accordingly; but that seems unlikely for a product intended almost entirely for the North American market, and which would need a step-down transformer anyway to be useful in the great majority of 50-hertz locations, where 230 volts is also the standard.
I suspect that your best course of action will be to equip yourself with some of the higher-voltage postwar Lionel transformers, like the KW, ZW, or Z. These will work fine in Japan and will be able to compensate for the lower voltage.
I'm with Bob here, from what I know of the electronic circuitry of the CW-80, it probably is a simplistic design.
My new ZW with the Power bricks also specifies 60hz only, so apparently Lionel doesn't think the rest of the world exists.
As far as the other transformers, note that you will have to de-rate them somewhat for 50hz, since the impedance of the primary (and the secondary) will be lower at 50hz. I've been told, though I don't know for sure, that the ZW (R) has a tighter core design and would work better on 50hz. I have one, and it's different than the ZW, don't know if the other statement is true.
The lower voltage will exactly compensate for the lower frequency. The core will be no more nor no less saturated at 100 volts, 50 hertz, than at 120 volts, 60 hertz. However, the output voltage will be lower, in proportion to the power-line voltage, that is, about 5/6 what we expect. But, by using one of the higher-voltage postwar transformers, you can still get about as much voltage as the CW-80 puts out. For example, the 21 volts that a ZW was designed to put out at 115 volts will drop to about 18.26 volts, which is almost the same as the 18-volt CW-80.
I didn't pay a lot of attention at the time, but it seems to me that a year ago (or less?), posts at this forum or over at the other place indicated that Lionel had modified the CW-80 to work with 50Hz current, and that the revised models could be identified somehow or other. Wish I could be more definite. Some searching might turn something up.
Martin
I thought I recalled the comment about 50hz as well, but a search didn't turn it up.
The latest CW-80 owner's manual says "INPUT: 120 VAC; 60 HZ ONLY."
http://www.lionel.com/media/servicedocuments/71-4198-250.pdf
I found the same restriction on all the transformers and "transformers" listed on the Lionel web site.
Hi,
Let me indulge in a bit of personal history. My first Lionel train set was, like me, pre-war. It came with a type H transformer--rated at 110-120 v, 25-40 cycles, 75 watts. The reason I a 25 cycle transformer was because I lived in Western NY. We received our power (25 cycles) from Niagara Falls. After WW II, Niagara-Mohawk, our power company, swept thru every town upgrading everyone and thing to 60 cycles. All the kids, except me, were given a new transformer. Boy was I upset!! The power company said my transformer was good enough for 60 cycle operation. Well, I still have and use that transformer, and my railroad empire has grown over the years. Don't worry, that transformer only powers a few accessories these days. I have a KW for the rest.
Dick
Dick, there was no reason for any of those other kids to need new transformers either. A higher frequency is going to be easier on any transformer. Perhaps they weren't using transformers at all, but rather number 107 reducers, which are unsafe at any speed.
Do you have a GG1? I have been amused by how the Lionel GG1 is not just cosmetically but also functionally like its prototype, in that it is powered by series-wound universal motors from an adjustable transformer (optionally) through a pantograph from an overhead wire. To that you could have added the prototypical frequency of 25 hertz.
Over at the OGR forum is a thread which touches on the CW-80 50hz issue. The revised units have a sticker on the bottom reading QC50-OK. There's a photo of the underside of one. (This is the first thread I found -- there may be others as well)
http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/57660482/m/6832967407?r=3412918407#3412918407
Thanks Martin,
One of my CW-80s has that sticker. I should only need one transformer over there since my power needs will be much less. I appreciate the link.
Good morning,
I wanted to update this thread with some issues I have been experiencing since I moved to Japan. I set up a simple loop of Fastrack under the Christmas tree. When I ran a brand new steam locomotive equipped with Trainsounds, the whistle, bell, and sounds continuously played. The locomotive ran properly otherwise. To troubleshoot, here's what I did to no avail:
1. Made sure the train consisted of two or three lighted passenger cars. It did; same problem.
2. Checked the CW-80 for the "50 Hz OK" sticker. It has it.
3. Reversed the wires from the CW-80 to the track. Same problem.
4. Tried my other Trainsounds locomotive. Same problem.
5. Tried my other CW-80 with a "50 Hz OK" sticker. Same problem.
6. Reversed the wires for this transformer. Same problem.
7. Tried a 40W Powermax transformer. Same problem.
8. Tried a diesel locomotive only equipped with a horn. No problem.
This leads me to believe my CW-80s are functioning properly on the 50 Hz cycle. The very traditional functions are working as they should. The Trainsounds functions seem to need the 60 Hz cycle. I researched the forum and saw a thread where some folks in Europe were experiencing similar problems. It looked like the fix was to convert/invert the power to DC and then convert/invert it back to AC on a 60 Hz cycle.
Bob and Gunrunnerjohn - You previously recommended I purchase a ZW, KW, or Z. Would you still recommend that or would the conversion/inversion route be better? I’m wondering if the Trainsounds problem would still exist with these transformers. I do have a 1044 as well, but that one clearly states 110 V, 60 Hz only. If you recommend the conversion/inversion route, what is my expected cost and where can I find what I need?
Thanks again,
Joe I believe chief was involved in that set up with one or two of the guys in england
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
Demay,
Here is a company that makes frequency converters, both electronic and rotary. Here is one in their electronic line. Give them a call for pricing:
http://www.georator.com/spec-pages/ProductFixedFrequencyConverterSpecifications_SSModelID_20.html
I did not see a rotary converter to fit your needs.
Perhaps you can make your own rotary converter by belting together a Japanese washing machine motor and a US motor, and use different pulleys to match the speeds for proper operation.
Another option is to use a pure sine wave inverter using a charger or car battery to power it:
http://www.theinverterstore.com/the-inverter-store-category.php?cat=PSW&gclid=CP7mqrnq-KwCFUOo4AodeAvzSQ
Lastly, Lionel has a dealer in Europe that sells their products, and they must have electronics in them for 50 cycles, albeit 220 volts. Worthwhile giving them a call and see if you can upgrade your electronics: http://www.lionel-europa.ch/
Larry
RT and Larry,
Thanks for the replies. I spoke to Chief and viewed the items Larry sent me. I have an inverter I used to convert my car's power to AC. Basically I plugged it into the car's cigarette lighter and then I could plug 110 V, 60 Hz items into the inverter. How would I convert the power coming from one outlet in my house to a DC source I could then plug the AC inverter into?
I sent Georator a note asking them for information. However, I saw the prices for some of their equipment and it is much more than I want to spend for something I only need for three years. It also appears their equipment is intended for whole household inversion.
If you can get one, I would recommend going the Z-ZW-KW route. Operating at the lower Japanese voltage compensates for the lower frequency and is not at all unsafe.
A homemade motor-generator set as described won't do the job, because you won't find the type of motor that could be turned into a generator in any likely appliance. On top of that, the 60-hertz motor will not turn quite fast enough to get 50 hertz from the generator, even if you could find a suitable generator.
A quick internet search reveals that washing machine motors can be used as a generator, albeit with an external capacitor, I believe, to help energize the field winding. Even if this route were not viable, a true generator could be purchased. A 100 volt 50 Hz motor turning the 120 volt 60 Hz generator at proper speed would then power up the transformer and trains, with all electronics functioning properly, which is what the ultimate goal is. This is just one option.
A 12 volt inverter could be powered up with a car battery charger. The type of inverter used would need to output a sinewave suitable for electronics use. Some inverters output modified sinewaves, which are not good for electronics applications; this would have to be checked before purchase.
Joe, Have you tried contacting either Mike R. or Jon Z. at Lionel ?
It would be a bummer to have to turn off the "Trainsounds" so you could run the trains.
Try a google for the Lionel club in the UK, maybe they could be of help.
Remember the Veterans. Past, present and future.
www.sd3r.org
Proud New Member Of The NRA
Larry and Bob - The DC power inverter I own is a Super Start 400 Watt model. It can convert 10.5 - 15 V DC to 110 - 125 V AC. The output frequency is 60 Hz. The wave form is "modified sine wave." The manual for this inverter lists many electronic items it can be used for to include laptops, televisions, fax machines, stereos, etc. My only dilemma now is I don't have a 12 V DC power source to use with this. I researched some DC power supplies but they all appeared to be meant for hardwiring to existing wire. I could not find anything that I could plug into my wall outlet and connect to this inverter. How practical is a 12 V battery charger? I have never used one and I would imagine they are very loud which will not be very practical given our small house setting.
Bob - Please forgive my ignorance in this matter. Since my CW-80s operate my non-Trainsounds engines just fine, is the problem due to the 50 Hz and not the 100 V output? Will the ZW, KW, or Z put out a 50 Hz frequency or somehow compensate for it? The reason I'm curious about the Hz is because we could not use many of our clocks and appliances here because the 50 Hz causes them to operate erratically. The time on our clocks elapses at faster and slower rates.
Doug - I have not contacted anyone from Lionel. I'm not sure how to contact those gentlemen specifically. Unfortunately, even when I turned off the Trainsounds function those locomotives continued to continuously sound their horns, bells, and whistles. However, my non-Trainsounds locomotives did not present this problem. From what I read on a similar thread to this one, the UK folks contacted the Lionel folks in Europe but did not have much success. The folks who contacted the UK club didn't fare much better with the exception of buying expensive inverters. I'm only going to be here three years so I'm hoping Bob's recommendation to buy a different transformer will do the trick. I can always use a new transformer.
Joe if you goto www.lionel.com click on customer service click on contact lionel click on either general question or service repair question should get you to someone that can help I would try the repair service one first I think unless you have a phone that you can call the us for free as I know it is expensive other wise and you may be on hold for about 15 minutes you could call and ask to talk to tech support as thats to me is the guys that would be in the know explain to the young lady that this has to do with a electronic problem not a part.
Joe, Sent you a message.
Joe, any (true) transformer will put out voltage at the same frequency that you put in. It's a bit of a stretch to call the CW-80 a transformer, although there is one inside it. It controls its output by switching the connection between the transformer's output and the CW-80's terminals on and off 120 times every second, that is, for every half-cycle of the transformer's output voltage. In order to work properly at 50 hertz, it has to be smart enough to do this in synchronism with the actual output, that is, 100 times every second, when the output is at 50 instead of 60 hertz.
It also introduces a little DC voltage into the output when you work the whistle or bell control, by switching the positive half-cycles on for a longer time than the negative half-cycles, or vice-versa. This is all very different from the way traditional transformers work. I can imagine that Lionel was able to modify the CW-80 to handle the speed control okay at 50 hertz, but didn't get the whistle-bell part right. Since they don't tell us how the thing works, or how their modern locomotives work (probably with computers inside), it's very hard to diagnose a problem like this.
On the other hand, we know just how the traditional transformers and whistle relays work. Transformers "saturate" when you give them too much voltage or too low a frequency. But, if you vary the voltage and frequency in the same proportion, they continue to work properly and safely. That is why a transformer that works at 120 volts and 60 hertz will also work at 100 volts and 50 hertz. The reason for suggesting the Z, ZW, and KW is that they normally put out pretty high voltage. Since reducing the input voltage will also reduce the output voltage, using a transformer with some voltage range to spare means that you will have a decent voltage out even at 100 volts in.
You will also have the simpler whistle control, which should work just about as well at 50 hertz as it does at 60 hertz. The whistle relay would probably operate spontaneously at about 23 volts instead of the 28 volts that lionel specifies; but you're not going to be operating at anywhere near that voltage.
Since you have a 1044, you could try running a locomotive with that. You won't get much speed, if it runs at all, since its normal 16 volts will be knocked down to 13 volts; but you may be able to see whether the whistle behaves properly, before buying one of the higher-voltage transformers that we have suggested.
Joe,
A car battery charger will make as much noise as your transformer. They are not a noisy unit. You will not know that it is in the room. You can try the inverter with a car battery charger and see if it works the electronics in your train properly.
You're going to need at the very least a 10-ampere charger, which will cost in the $100 ballpark. Its output voltage may very well be unfiltered, which may mean that you will need an actual 12-volt battery between the charger and your inverter.
RT - Thanks for the information.
Doug - Thanks to you as well. I sent you a reply.
Larry and Bob - I tried the 1044 tonight and I had the same problem. I received a reply from Georator about their inverters. Their inverters are for commercial use and are much more than I need or want to pay. However, one of their engineers found some blog which covered this topic in depth. It appears my DC to AC inverter will work with a DC power supply some folks in the UK are using. I need to find one which is meant for 100 V though and not 220 V, but the blogs provided the links. One blogger discussed how he modified an old laptop DC power supply and connected to the DC inverter. I am not comfortable trying that. I am going to borrow a friend’s battery charger (hopefully it has enough ampere) to test that out before I buy anything from the UK.
I'll pass on my results.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.
Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month