That looks familiar. Here's my original post in this forum: http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/p/185196/2030793.aspx#2030793
The schematic diagram shows only one of the momentary switches. There should be one in each diode string if you want both whistle and bell control.
Bob Nelson
gunrunnerjohn NO, the horn button should NOT have a separate power supply! All the power to the track has to go through the horn button whether it's running or not. Here's a home-made horn/whistle controller: http://www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowThread?id=412&categoryId=559 Here's another one:
NO, the horn button should NOT have a separate power supply! All the power to the track has to go through the horn button whether it's running or not.
Here's a home-made horn/whistle controller: http://www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowThread?id=412&categoryId=559
Here's another one:
Thanks for the info! I believe I know someone who can make some sense of this.
gunrunnerjohn You can roll your own horn/bell button, I wouldn't recommend trying to do this with a separate transformer! How would you wire that?
You can roll your own horn/bell button, I wouldn't recommend trying to do this with a separate transformer! How would you wire that?
The horn button (8251-50) has the four wires, figured it could just be hooked up to another power source and work independently of the way Bob had me rewire the track to supply constant voltage to the 1121 switch. Probably not though? I'm overly concerned I will ruin something or send momma flying into the second floor from an explosion in the basement without confirmation from people who know what there doing.
Bob do you think it's possible to use a DC transformer separate from the main transformer or does it have to be an AC transformer to operate the horn? I currently only have to trains that have horns, 8352, 8355 (horn is in this one) and a 8632 steam engine.
I think "reverse the connections to the 8251-50" is too simplistic. I'm not familiar with this controller and assumed that it was a two-terminal device. I see that it has four wires; so I don't know what would be the proper way would be to reverse the whistle-signal polarity. If anyone has any information about this device, like an owner's manual or repair manual, would you mind posting it?
Will do, thanks again Bob!!!!!
The new wiring connects the transformer to the track in the reverse of the normal connection (A to outside rails, U to center rail). For older trains this doesn't matter, since their whistles respond to either polarity of the DC that the transformer's whistle circuit adds to the track voltage. Modern trains however sense that polarity, in order to be able to control the whistle and bell separately.
All you should have to do is to reverse the connections to the 8251-50. It will become the new whistle controller, while the transformer will control the bell. (Or, if you were using it to replace a faulty transformer control, you'll just return to what you had before you changed the wiring.)
gunrunnerjohn...I've never seen any Lionel O27 stuff that offered constant voltage operation out of the box.
You've never seen K-Line, then.
Rob
Bob amazing!!!!! Thank you very much. I'm going to ask one more question than run out of the room. The horn/whistle controller (8251-50) doesnt work now, any clue?
Stop the presses! This might do the job without any turnout modification: Try connecting terminal U to the outside rails, A to the center rail, and C to the center wires of the controllers. Don't connect anything to the center terminals of the turnouts. This will give you 10-19 volts for the train and 19 volts all the time for the turnouts.
Currently for this little "test track" that's set up it is a Type S 115 volt 80 watt Lionel and I have a 1033 on my work bench. Once I start getting a better handle and get the larger layout going I have a ZW. Figured I can use the other one or two for some different accessories. I better just concentrate on this for now before my head pops off.
Here is Olsen's diagram: http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/swt/stc1121a.pdf
Notice that one end of each of the two solenoid coils and the center terminal of the lamp are all connected to the center rail. The modification is simply to disconnect the solenoid coils from the center rail and to bring them, together, out of the turnout for connection to the accessory voltage. You can leave the lamp connected to the center rail, or, if you want, keep it with the solenoids so that it will stay on all the time.
The accessory voltage can come from the same transformer that you're using for the track, if it has an accessory output with enough voltage. Or you can use a separate transformer, with its common terminal connected to the outside rails. It is possible with the 1121 to keep that separate transformer completely isolated, but there's no point in doing that. Don't worry about the phase of a separate transformer if you use one.
What transformer(s) are you using?
Any chance for a wiring diagram? Very much a beginner.
If the problem is that the turnout needs a higher voltage to operate than is reasonable for the train's speed, then adding a lockon won't solve the problem. As long as the turnout is powered from the track, the turnout and the train will both see the same voltage, which will be either too little for the turnout or too much for the train.
lionelsoni What matters is not the transformer's power rating but the voltage. For example, if your 80-watt transformer is a CW-80, the maximum voltage is about 18 volts, which is probably more than your train needs for a reasonable speed. To be useful, your turnouts need to be able to throw at a voltage that you can run the trains at. That one turnout seems not to be working as easily as it should if it needs 18 volts to throw. You might look for some mechanical problem that can be fixed, perhaps by lubrication. If that doesn't work out, the problem could be in the solenoids themselves, which would be very hard to fix. However, another way out is to rewire the turnout(s) for operation from a separate accessory supply, which you can set as high as you need. Since the 1121 lacks the non-derailing feature, there is no risk of burning out the solenoids as there would be with an 1122.
What matters is not the transformer's power rating but the voltage. For example, if your 80-watt transformer is a CW-80, the maximum voltage is about 18 volts, which is probably more than your train needs for a reasonable speed. To be useful, your turnouts need to be able to throw at a voltage that you can run the trains at. That one turnout seems not to be working as easily as it should if it needs 18 volts to throw. You might look for some mechanical problem that can be fixed, perhaps by lubrication. If that doesn't work out, the problem could be in the solenoids themselves, which would be very hard to fix.
However, another way out is to rewire the turnout(s) for operation from a separate accessory supply, which you can set as high as you need. Since the 1121 lacks the non-derailing feature, there is no risk of burning out the solenoids as there would be with an 1122.
Bob, how about wiring another CTC lockon close to the problem turnout?
wyomingscout
Getting O27 switches to work on constant voltage requires hacking the switch, I've never seen any Lionel O27 stuff that offered constant voltage operation out of the box.
Hey Bob it works however I have an 80 watt transformer and it needs to be turned all the way up. When I just have the two switches by themselves and hook them up to a transformer they work fine, it is just when I hook them back up to the rest of the track. The train runs around the track and through the switch fine without interuption so I'm figuring it's connected good.
No, you should not need insulating pins, not at all in the running rails and in the center rail only to the extent that you want to isolate your sidings.
Here's a test you can do to try to localize the problem to the turnout or to the controller: Disconnect the controller from the misbehaving turnout. Then, with track voltage turned up, use a piece of wire to connect the common terminal, which is the one closest to the switch machine, briefly to one and the other of the two other terminals, one at a time, to see whether the turnout throws.
Thanks again so much for the info. Now to further embarass myself and being new to this, i have 1121 switches not 1122. Do I still need insulating pins and where exactly if so?
The 1121 turnouts lack the non-derailing feature, but 1122 turnouts have it. Early 1122 turnouts do not need insulating pins. Later ones need insulating pins in the rails that lead to the frog.
If one of your turnouts is the more common later version and you have not used the insulating pins, then your turnout's solenoids have been on whenever the track voltage was on. The solenoids are easily damaged by such continuous operation.
The 1122 lacks the internal switch found in the 022 and some other turnouts that turns the solenoid off after the turnout has thrown. Instead, it relies on the probability that track voltage will be off if a train is stopped on the non-derailing control rail. If neither control rail is insulated, the turnout will likely hum as the solenoids fight each other. An 022, on the other hand will chatter, because of the internal switch.
I understood the 1122 switches didn't have a non derailing feature but i will certainly give it a try. Thank you so much for the input, it's greatly appreciated. This is the greatest hobby ever!!!!!!!!
If you don't have insulating pins in either of the outside rails, that's most likely your problem! When those two rails have a connection, the switch is activated.
That's the non-derailing feature trying to work.
I have one insulating pin in the middle rail of the first piece of straight track on the siding switching to the left so I can turn that siding off and on. Haven't done the right side because I came across this problem.
Are you sure you have the insulating pins in the correct place? If you cross them up, you'll create all sorts of issues with the switches. :)
Hello all, I'm in need of some advice for an 1122 not swiching. Long story hopefully short, I have started bench work on a larger layout but in the meantime I wanted a little 4x8 test track with my O-27 track I have laying around. The purpose for me is to have something to work on and improve my skills before tackling the bigger layout. It is a simple oval with two sidings where there is a left than a right hand switch (1122) creating two dead end sidings. I have hooked them together and tested them before inserting them in the oval and they snap fine back and forth however when inserted in the oval the left doesnt seem to be getting enough juice, it just buzzes and the right one is fine. To my knowledge the pins are tight and there are no dead spots. Sorry if this is a waste of time because I wont be using them for the future layout just wanted to have a liitle something to play with in the meantime. ))))
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