The large red and black things on the ends are binding posts for easy connections to the transformer and the track.
Yes, the odd pushbutton selection was just because that was the stuff in the junkbox.
The SPDT center off switch is a clever idea, that would combine whistle/bell in one control. You can also add a momentary NC (normally closed) push button to the other lead to serve as a direction control if desired.
Got it using wiring diagram by Lionel for the 6-5906 ... wasn't working because the button wasn't attached. Thought I could test by touching the 2 wires rather than using the button. All is good ... thanks for your help. This forum is the best! Happy New Year!
Those are the buttons. Note that he used an SPDT as an SPST on the left and a DPDT as an SPST on the right, presumably because that's what he had on hand. Another way to do it is with a single SPDT-CO (center-off) momentary switch.
Bob Nelson
What are the 4 large posts and nuts on either side of the box?? Are the red items in the middle you N/O pushbuttons??
Actually, you should be able to wire it from the picture. The push buttons are normally open, and I just used them like SPST buttons, note only two connections. The diode connections are pretty obvious, five in each direction. I never bothered to draw a schematic, since it was such a simple circuit.
Do you have a schematic you can post of this dual function panel you constructed???
My Lionel button died after only a couple of months in service .... it also had problems with the bell shutting off. BTW the cost of homemade is about 5 bucks each. Besides it's enjoyable to make.
RRaddict I just got a Lionel button for 15 bucks and it works great. It's not worth making your own. Kevin
I just got a Lionel button for 15 bucks and it works great. It's not worth making your own.
Kevin
I made mine for $0.00 with parts out of my junkbox in about 20-30 minutes, so I have to disagree.
Can't stop working on the railroad!
Finally got the bell working for the most part. One of the Williams locos responds on most sections of the layout but the other oddly turns on and off consistently on the second or third track after each lockon ( there are 3 on the loop) .... go figure? I can live with this ... thanks again for all the suggestions.
I built one of these with 5 diodes in each direction and two buttons for whistle/bell, it works fine with all the locomotives I've tried it with. That includes one that has a Williams horn/bell module.
OK ... got the bells working on the Williams unit's true blast II but consistently only in neutral. Underway the bells are finicky ... sometimes they work and other times not. I did notice that they seem to turn on and off over the lock-on tracks. I have used six diodes for the assembly .... working with a KW no issue with the horns ... is this a power issue??? Should I add a seventh diode??? Do the tracks need a cleaning??? Any thoughts on what might be happening???
Would an old 167 controller work with a transformer w/o a whisle feature?? Does it also activate a diesel horn?
I have no idea.
I added the sixth diode and the WIlliams horn units work well and the bell turns on but does not shut off easily. It takes several presses of the NC button but eventually it turns off. It seems that the higher the power level the easier it shuts off. I can howerver live with this. On the other hand my postwar tender does not react at all!! Do I need to add another diode??
No idea. This is a pervasive problem when working with modern trains and transformers. In olden times, it was possible to know what was in the locomotives, tenders, and transformers; so problems could be analyzed. Now, the manufacturers are all holding onto their trade secrets. All we have to go on are some broad principles and tidbits of information that can be gleaned by looking at signals. So I could give you a guess about a Lionel whistle relay; but that's not what's in a Williams locomotive.
Have you tried adding the extra diodes to the string?
Thanks Bob ... can you tell me why the Williams units horn/bell work in neutral but not while moving??
Jim
I just noticed that I missed John's question above. He asked, "How do you come up with 6 diodes? The diode rectifies the boost winding's voltage, so one diode gets the job done in any PW transformer that I've opened up."
The copper-oxide rectifier diode in a postwar transformer doesn't rectify just the 5-volt boost winding's voltage, but rather the total of the main winding and the extra 5 volts, but not for long. The whistle control switches a low-value resistor around the diode to restore most, but not all, of the half of the waveform that the diode excluded. The string of 5 (or more) diodes in the gadgets we're talking about do the same thing, but more reliably, since the resistor voltage varies with the load current and the diodes' voltage does not. Not having enough diodes in the string restores too much of the waveform, not leaving enough DC voltage for the relay. You could make one with a single diode and a resistor; but its performance would be more erratic than the multiple-diode version.
The big disadvantage of the NC scheme is that it drops the voltage generally, not having the 5-volt boost that was available in the postwar transformer. The NO scheme gets around this by dropping the voltage all the time when the whistle isn't blowing. Then it restores some of the lost voltage when the button is pressed. Either design has one diode in anti-parallel with a string when the whistle is blown. The difference in the numbers of diodes, that is however many in the string minus the one in anti-parallel, determines how much DC voltage is present.
Srguy, just add another diode or two to the series string.
I'm a little lost with the technical explanation. I'm using NC push button, 5 diodes and a very basic 40W or so 90s era transformer .... do I simply add another diode or do I need to do something else???
Thanks for the clarification Bob, I didn't realize we were talking different designs.
Does everyone understand that we've been talking about two different designs. What I will call the "normally open" or "NO" design has two series strings of about 6 diodes each with the strings wired in anti-parallel. There are two normally-open pushbuttons, which each short out all but one doide in each string. The NO design can generate both polarities of signal and boosts the overall voltage when either of the pushbuttons is pressed, speeding up the train. It looses a couple of volts when not in use; so it has to be used with a transformer that has a little headroom above what is needed for the trains. The NO design should have at least 10 diodes.
The NC design has one series string of about 5 diodes with a sixth diode wired in anti-paralled with the 5-diode string. There is one normally-closed pushbutton which shorts out the entire circuit. The NC design can generate only one polarity of signal and drops the overall voltage when the pushbutton is pressed, slowing down the train. However, it does not lose any voltage when not in use. The NC design should have at least 6 diodes.
lionelsoni You need a total of at least 6 diodes to meet the Lionel specification of 1.1 volts to activate a whistle relay. The DC voltage that a total of n diodes produce is approximately (n/2-1)*.65. This is .975 volts for n=5, but 1.3 volts for n=6. Another diode beyond that wouldn't hurt.
You need a total of at least 6 diodes to meet the Lionel specification of 1.1 volts to activate a whistle relay. The DC voltage that a total of n diodes produce is approximately (n/2-1)*.65. This is .975 volts for n=5, but 1.3 volts for n=6. Another diode beyond that wouldn't hurt.
Would it hurt to trim the length of the metal pin on the diode ... it's already larger than I expected.
I was testing the diode assembly on a very basic transformer that came with an rtr set in the early 90s ... probably about 40W. I also have a KW running 2 other loops which I haven't yet tested. I'm still perplexed as to why the lionel diesel horn works under all conditions and the Williams only works in neutral. Could the power draw under way be affecting the horn/bell performance?? I'm using a total of 5 diodes and thought possibly adding 2 more might resolve the problem.
My first step would be to try a different transformer. It seems that the top suspect is the rectifier in the transformer, I've replaced many of those with a diode.
I tested all engines with the following results:
Williams w/ true blast II - horn and bell both work in neutral but not when moving
Lionel RS3 90s era w/ horn - horn works fine both in neutral and while moving
PW 2055 - whistle does not work at all either in neutral or while moving ... the buzz of the e unit changes sound but that's it. What's happening here?? Any thoughts.
Do williams horn units operate differently than Lionel's??
As a follow up to "problem solved" .... When I tested the horn and bell function the train was in neutral and both worked. Tonight I tried it while running and nothing but dimming lights. Bothe engines in question are Williams with True Blast II. Put a 1990s era Lionel with horn only and it worked OK. Did not try my PW steam yet. Any idea on what's happening?? BTW I ran the Williams fast with plenty of power.
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