Pre-War Lionel Help!

[Mononflyer]

Hello,

 

Dad bought this pre war Lionel engine and I am trying to find out what parts he'll need.  It was sold as altered tinplate, and since I don't know much about prewar Lionel, I have some questions.

 

1.  It looks like the e-unit was removed.

2.  I don't think the wheels are correct.

3.  Looks like a connecting rod is missing.

4.  I think this is a Lionel 290E, but I am not sure.

Here are some pictures:

http://mononflyer.shutterfly.com/pictures/20

http://mononflyer.shutterfly.com/pictures/20#12

http://mononflyer.shutterfly.com/pictures/20#15

http://mononflyer.shutterfly.com/pictures/20#19

[SantaFe158]

If you want a quicker reply I'd suggest also posting this on the "O Gauge Railroading" tinplate forum

[phillyreading]

Mononflyer

Hello,

 

Dad bought this pre war Lionel engine and I am trying to find out what parts he'll need.  It was sold as altered tinplate, and since I don't know much about prewar Lionel, I have some questions.

 

1.  It looks like the e-unit was removed.

2.  I don't think the wheels are correct.

3.  Looks like a connecting rod is missing.

4.  I think this is a Lionel 290E, but I am not sure.

Here are some pictures:

http://mononflyer.shutterfly.com/pictures/20

http://mononflyer.shutterfly.com/pictures/20#12

http://mononflyer.shutterfly.com/pictures/20#15

http://mononflyer.shutterfly.com/pictures/20#19

Unless you bought it for parts, I would say it needs too much repair to be profitable or affordable to repair. The side rods and steam chests will cost about $65.00, from Madison Hardware, if available. The E-unit will cost close to $30.00 with shipping from Papa Les Trains in California.

Lee F.

[rtraincollector]

phillyreading

Mononflyer:

Hello,

 

Dad bought this pre war Lionel engine and I am trying to find out what parts he'll need.  It was sold as altered tinplate, and since I don't know much about prewar Lionel, I have some questions.

 

1.  It looks like the e-unit was removed.

2.  I don't think the wheels are correct.

3.  Looks like a connecting rod is missing.

4.  I think this is a Lionel 290E, but I am not sure.

Here are some pictures:

http://mononflyer.shutterfly.com/pictures/20

http://mononflyer.shutterfly.com/pictures/20#12

http://mononflyer.shutterfly.com/pictures/20#15

http://mononflyer.shutterfly.com/pictures/20#19

 

Unless you bought it for parts, I would say it needs too much repair to be profitable or affordable to repair. The side rods and steam chests will cost about $65.00, from Madison Hardware, if available. The E-unit will cost close to $30.00 with shipping from Papa Les Trains in California.

Lee F.

First I don't see why you need a steam chest. 2nd Maddison hardware has been closed and out of business about 10 years.

I was wondering if it was a 259. I don't see a 290 in my price guide.

Now a E-unit maybe jeff kane at www.ttender.com or olsens

Now jeff will be in york, Pa for the next 5 days. York train meet.

but to me it looks like a nice engine you have there.

wheels look correct style but there painted red so maybe after market replacement There the help I can give

[Penny Trains]

Yep!  That's a 259E alright!  A 1933 (only) type 1 to be precise.  Later 259E's had gunmetal bodies and black wheels, while the 1932 (only) 259 had a manual reverse with the lever inside the cab.  Here's a link to a diagram of the 259E motor: http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=817  The price at Olsen's for the E-unit (rebuilt original) is $37.10 + $8 shipping.

The wheels look right, but I'm not 100% sure either.  At any rate, they run about $8 each to replace.  The front right one may be swollen, and it's hard to tell from the pics wether they're originals or repros.  Their cleanliness and lack of cracks could mean repro.

There should be a connecting rod on each side and a brass ferrule (which you have) to keep it separated from the main rod.

Also, the logo plates on either side of the cab have been overpainted.  They should be a shiny brass "L" in a circle with red above and blue below and to the left of the "L".  That too is a very common and inexpensive repro part.

It looks like someone replaced the original number board with a solid piece.  In the rectangle on the front of the engine between the marker lights there should be a piece of celuloid showing through with the "259E" punched out so the light shines through the numbers.  Again, Olsen's should have that part.  Speaking of the marker lights, the one on the left (looking from the front) should have green celuloid and the one on the right should be red.  You may need to put a light behind them to check and see if they're right.  I turned mine on just now to check! 

Do you have the tender?  The 259E of 33 came with a 259T with copper journals.  However my 259 from 1932 came with a 258T, which I can't seem to confirm wether or not it's original to the loco.  In fact, I can't seen to find mention of a 258T at all in David Doyle's Standard Catalog of Lionel Trains 1900-1942. 

And you're right RT, there's no 290! 

Becky

[servoguy]

Becky,

If the loco has a manual reverse lever, it can't be a 259E.  It could be a 259.  Or did Lionel sometimes designate an engine xxxE when It had no E unit?

Bruce Baker

[Mononflyer]

I'm not sure if the e-unit was manual or automatic since it is missing.  The engine was repainted, so I'm not sure of the original color either.  He does have a tender, but I don't know if it's the right one or not.

I think at least the front wheels are wrong because they do not have a place to bolt on the connecting rod.

Thanks for the link to Olsen's, the diagrams are very helpful.

[phillyreading]

I guess I was wrong about some of the parts needed, but I was going by a pre war 249E that I have. Didn't know that Madison Hardware had closed, thanks for the info.

As Becky mentioned, the tender for her steam engine is not listed in David Doyle's catalog of Lionel trains.  I have a similar issue with my 249E, it was my dad's and I know it's the original tender, it has a # 2225T stamped on it. Other pieces of the set this engine is with are from 1939, and I am 100% certain this set is all original. Greenberg's price guide don't list that tender with a 249, but it lists it with a 238E.

So it seems that some items are left out by either mistake or not doing enuff research for the price guide.

Lee F.

[Penny Trains]

servoguy

Becky,

If the loco has a manual reverse lever, it can't be a 259E.  It could be a 259.  Or did Lionel sometimes designate an engine xxxE when It had no E unit?

Bruce Baker

I went back and re-read what I wrote and I probably could have done better.    Here's the chronology:

1932: 259 Black and brass (copper) with manual reverse and 259T tender.

1933: 259E Black and brass (copper) with E-Unit and 259T tender.

1934: 259E Gunmetal with black wheels, E-Unit and either 1689T or 1689W tender.

Based on the design of the motor frame and the slot on top of the boiler shell, this one is definately a lever-up E-Unit type. 

Becky

[Penny Trains]

Mononflyer

I'm not sure if the e-unit was manual or automatic since it is missing.  The engine was repainted, so I'm not sure of the original color either.  He does have a tender, but I don't know if it's the right one or not.

I think at least the front wheels are wrong because they do not have a place to bolt on the connecting rod.

Thanks for the link to Olsen's, the diagrams are very helpful.

That pretty well cinches it that at least the front wheels are repros.  Either the previous owner couldn't find or didn't bother to install the right ones.  They used wheels from an electric outline loco instead of steam wheels which have a bossing for the rods.

Even though it's a repaint it's still very likely that it's a 1933 259E type one.  From 1934 on, all 259E's (type 2 and beyond) were Gunmetal gray with black wheels and nickel trim where yours has brass and copper trim.  So unless you know 100% that the previous owner replaced all the trim; handrails, stanchions, domes, stack, headlight, etc., you can feel confident dating it to 1933.  It's not unheard of to buy an engine shell and build a loco one part at a time, but you have pretty good circumstantial evidence against it.  Still have no idea why they overpainted the Logo plates on the sides of the cab though. 

The Olsen's library is great, just wish you could print those diagrams!    But, if you check the digrams for both the 259 and 259E type motors, you'll see that the frames are very different where the reverse mechanisms go.  Also, the manual reverse 259 of 1932 doesn't have a slot in the top of the boiler for the E-Unit lever, but rather a slot on the inside wall of the cab for the longer manual reverse lever.

I'm not usually this knowledgeable!    You just happened to pick my favorite pre-war loco! 

Becky

[Penny Trains]

phillyreading

I guess I was wrong about some of the parts needed, but I was going by a pre war 249E that I have. Didn't know that Madison Hardware had closed, thanks for the info.

As Becky mentioned, the tender for her steam engine is not listed in David Doyle's catalog of Lionel trains.  I have a similar issue with my 249E, it was my dad's and I know it's the original tender, it has a # 2225T stamped on it. Other pieces of the set this engine is with are from 1939, and I am 100% certain this set is all original. Greenberg's price guide don't list that tender with a 249, but it lists it with a 238E.

So it seems that some items are left out by either mistake or not doing enuff research for the price guide.

Lee F.

I've got another good one from Doyle's book.  Under the listings for the 1690 and 1691 it says "and the roofs."  for the type one cars.  It should say "and the roofs were brown" or something similar.

But, you can't catch everything and Lionel especially was notorious for making up sets in configurations other than what was cataloged.  So a lot of the guidebook writers tend to use "known" or "most common" or "confirmed" when they write them.  Anyhoo, keeps us busy! 

Becky

[rtraincollector]

Penny Trains

I'm not usually this knowledgeable!    You just happened to pick my favorite pre-war loco! 

Becky

I was wondering where you got all those smarts

[Mononflyer]

Hey Becky,

 

Thanks for all the info!  Dad wants to get the parts to fix it and the Olsen's diagrams are great.

 

Now all I have to do is figure out how to wire up the e-unit once we get one.

 

Thanks,

[balidas]

Yea, she was pretty epic, huh? 

[Penny Trains]