lionelsoni Bf's post jogged my memory, and I started digging around. Roy McClellan sent me a .jpg file by Dale Manquen ("CDM") back in 2006. It is dated 2005 April 23 and is a schematic of a CW-80. I will be happy to e-mail it to anyone who would like it. However, I should warn you that it is mostly power supply, switches, pots, and the aforementioned triacs interfaced to a single integrated circuit labeled MC68HC908JK3CP, which seems to be a Motorola microprocessor.
Bf's post jogged my memory, and I started digging around. Roy McClellan sent me a .jpg file by Dale Manquen ("CDM") back in 2006. It is dated 2005 April 23 and is a schematic of a CW-80. I will be happy to e-mail it to anyone who would like it. However, I should warn you that it is mostly power supply, switches, pots, and the aforementioned triacs interfaced to a single integrated circuit labeled MC68HC908JK3CP, which seems to be a Motorola microprocessor.
Bob, given the date cited above (April 2005) the schematic would almost certainly be of the original, factory-miswired * version of the CW-80. The revised ones first appeared in early to mid 2006. Nevertheless, such a diagram could still be useful in some circumstances.
*It may be difficult for some of you to believe, but the fact is that 100 percent of the original CW-80s were miswired by the Chinese factory. This persisted throughout (roughly) three years' production. Amazingly, this problem did not matter much in simple "under-the-tree" layouts, but many attempts to get more sophisticated, such as trying to use the accessory terminals to power things such as model 022 switches (turnouts) or certain other accessories would not work and probably caused a lot of the hidden fuses to blow. Quality control also was dreadful, and many of those pre-revision CW-80 were dead right from the box. Others ran for a very short time before failing. Many owners failed to read the instructions, and thereby missed certain critical cautions. Ironically, the early Owner's Manuals were chock-full of errors and inconsistencies too.
Virtually all of this "fine mess" was corrected with the revised models that began appearing in 2006.
However, to this day it remains possible to purchase an early defective model correctly offered as "new in sealed box." Thus, "brand new" does not necessarily signify a properly revised version. Buyer beware!
Even though the original poster of this thread actually purchased a "G" model, buying it second hand meant that he knew little or nothing about its history. Either it was a rare bad example of the revised type, or the previous owner had abused it, or it was damaged in shipping. There is one other possibility which I will not mention out of courtesy towards the original poster.
.
Bob Nelson
myson&iIf everyone would take a look at my opening post, there is nothing said about LIONEL at all. My post was made after using the "search" function of this site, and using google. If you pay attention to what is stated, you will see that I already had the transformer apart, and started a debug. However not finding much on fixing it, I figured I would start this post. Still not getting much of an answer HERE (which is fine). I decided to contact Lionel. Here is where this will get interesting. The woman I talked to asked me what I was having an issue with. I told her "I have a CW80". Cutting me off at those words she said "we don't have any in stock, there are more coming in from China. Call back in 2 weeks." Getting the feeling she had heard that before I asked, "Can you tell me what my date code means?" She replied with no you would have to call the factory in China for that.
myson&iHere is my problem. I have encountered many "under payed" customer service representatives that do a fine job. But I am not here to talk about ethics or how hard a person should work per there pay. What I was looking for was a direction from the manufacturer on how I could go about getting their item fixed. She could of easily rambled off a list of service centers, or better yet hooked me up with someone a little higher up than herself (maybe Mike Reagan POSSIBLE ROCKET SCIENTIST or not...) just to explain a little better what to do in this matter. At that point I would not have hung up the phone with a "bad taste in my mouth".
myson&iMany of you are probably wondering, "why wouldn't he just buy another transformer" or, " try to send it back to the original seller." I did contact the seller, and they just wanted me to return the whole Polar Express set. This was not something I wanted to do because, A. The rest of the set was in MINT condition! B. I already had it... I don't want to give it back!
Sounds reasonable. Not many people want to return something they have in their hands!
myson&iI don't want to buy another transformer, i already have two ZW's that work just fine... I do however want to fix it, I mean I am a man, that's what we do RIGHT?
myson&iBeing that I have worked on my share of Toyota's, and have had to replace a a few capacitors on a mother board for a Sony 40" LCD to get it working again (even though I'm partial to Samsung, much better picture In my opinion) I am pretty confident I have the skills to get this CW80 up and running again.
But the manufacturer does not recommend you even open the case... so if they advise you on what to do then they could potentially be liable. And if you were to injure yourself in the process... I think you get the picture.
Random observations:
Some time back, a gentleman named Dale Manquen posted a schematic of "the" CW-80 on the OGR forum. (Mr. Manquen is the very clever chap who has modified trains to operate vertically, i.e., climb straight up and down and run totally upside down.)
I put the "the" in "the CW-80" in quotation marks to emphasize the fact that there have been at least three different versions, along with the normal "continuous product development." Therefore it is meaningless to speak of the device as if it were a single entity. In this case the original post identifies his particular copy as having a "G-code" version and that is helpful.
It is clear, however, that his main desire is to fool around with the innards of his CW-80 and he does not need any help getting his train to run. So be it.
I cannot recall whether Mr. Manquen's diagram was of the original version or the primary revision. My hard-copy is not readily at hand.
If I understand Bob "lionelsoni" Nelson's latest post correctly, by "firmware" he means that there is likely to be a chip inside "the" CW-80 that is exclusive to Lionel. If so, such a chip would be very difficult to purchase. Indeed, one might well have to find another CW-80 of the same version that had died for other reasons and salvage the part -- assuming that the "special chip" was the cause of the immediate problem.
This brings us to these stark realities:
1. Lionel designed all versions of the CW-80 not to be serviced and attempted to enforce this by making it difficult to open, "tamper-resistant;
2. As far as I am aware there is no copy of a schematic currently on the web -- at least I haven't been able to find one. One could try to contact Dale Manquen, I suppose;
3. There are (and long have been) a zillion of articles about CW-80s on various forums* and on the internet generally. Many, if not most are ill-informed and generally hateful ---or at least not helpful;
4. Some folks have repaired CW-80s successfully; many others have not. Obviously this depends on whether one can get inside the case, what is actually wrong (the diagnosis), whether suitable parts can be found (some are easy) and whether the device can be reassembled without further damaging it. (The space for the pushbutton assembly is very tight and difficult, so I am told.)
*CTT, OGR, FasTrack, MTJ, to name a few. Some of the archives of these forums are quite transient and the posts disappear into cyberspace after only a short life. But somebody, somewhere, may have a schematic diagram that he will send to you.
Maybe I missed it; but I don't recall ever seeing a post on the forum that reported a successful repair of a CW-80. For whatever their reasons, Lionel and other modern manufacturers don't want to repair their own electronics and don't want you to either. So, very little is known about the CW-80 beyond that it has a 20-volt-RMS transformer with a couple of triacs as pass elements for its two outputs. How these triacs are controlled is a question that Lionel has not answered, as far as I know; but I bet there is firmware involved.
This is why you're not getting the repair information you hoped to get here. Within limits, the forum members are free to post whatever comments they like. The fact that those comments contain nothing helpful to your repair effort don't mean that we don't want to help. We just don't know the answers, and at times get as frustrated as you at the difficulty of repairing modern toy trains, especially as compared to the ample resources available for keeping the old ones running, apparently indefinitely.
Lets put the brakes on for a minute here.
I want to get everyone back to neutral, recharge our batteries...
If everyone would take a look at my opening post, there is nothing said about LIONEL at all. My post was made after using the "search" function of this site, and using google. If you pay attention to what is stated, you will see that I already had the transformer apart, and started a debug. However not finding much on fixing it, I figured I would start this post. Still not getting much of an answer HERE (which is fine). I decided to contact Lionel. Here is where this will get interesting. The woman I talked to asked me what I was having an issue with. I told her "I have a CW80". Cutting me off at those words she said "we don't have any in stock, there are more coming in from China. Call back in 2 weeks." Getting the feeling she had heard that before I asked, "Can you tell me what my date code means?" She replied with no you would have to call the factory in China for that.
Here is my problem. I have encountered many "under payed" customer service representatives that do a fine job. But I am not here to talk about ethics or how hard a person should work per there pay. What I was looking for was a direction from the manufacturer on how I could go about getting their item fixed. She could of easily rambled off a list of service centers, or better yet hooked me up with someone a little higher up than herself (maybe Mike Reagan POSSIBLE ROCKET SCIENTIST or not...) just to explain a little better what to do in this matter. At that point I would not have hung up the phone with a "bad taste in my mouth".
Many of you are probably wondering, "why wouldn't he just buy another transformer" or, " try to send it back to the original seller." I did contact the seller, and they just wanted me to return the whole Polar Express set. This was not something I wanted to do because, A. The rest of the set was in MINT condition! B. I already had it... I don't want to give it back!
I don't want to buy another transformer, i already have two ZW's that work just fine... I do however want to fix it, I mean I am a man, that's what we do RIGHT?
Being that I have worked on my share of Toyota's, and have had to replace a a few capacitors on a mother board for a Sony 40" LCD to get it working again (even though I'm partial to Samsung, much better picture In my opinion) I am pretty confident I have the skills to get this CW80 up and running again.
I will say that my next post here will be a step by step on how I went about getting it fixed, not being a guide to fix one, but merely an insight on what is inside one, and if someone else has an issue like mine might use it for a little help.
I think I will focus my energy on that rather than writing another winded post that really got us nowhere closer to fixing my CW80.
CHEERS!
Just to add some context. I've one of the newer CW80s which runs superbly - I guess there's always at least one.
Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.
I guessed that your intention was more nuanced than it seemed, Neil; but I didn't want to put words in your mouth. I hoped that you would explain more fully, as you have.
I wasn't criticizing anyone who advised him to consult Lionel, I was criticizing anyone who advised him to continue to blame or insult Lionel, as he did by commenting that his experiences meant that Lionel's manufacturing standards weren't up to the postwar era. As someone who lived through the postwar era, I know just how many lemons got made, and how inferior the precision and reproducibility the manufacturing processes of that era were. Reliability sucked to put it bluntly. The designs were robust and many products survived to function a half century later, to be sure. But plenty of items were discarded along the way because the design and/or execution was inferior or inadequate.
Not every customer service person is exactly a rocket scientist, and that this one wasn't perfect by any means is not surprising. These folks are poorly paid and uneducated in most instances. Welcome to the modern era of manufacturing for a small boutique industry. But over-reacting to one instance from one person doesn't solve any problems.
The CW80 as currently made, which I own, is a fine transformer when used as intended for Lionel equipment. The early versions had some problems. So do Sony TVs or Toyota cars occasionally, despite being icons of high manufacturing quality. The fact that the CW80 doesn't work well with some MTH locos, which Allan Miller of OGRR is constantly whining about, is irrelevant. Plenty of MTH locos don't work well with Lionel or MRC transformers, and plenty of MTH transformers have their own quirks. The special pleading and misleading nonsense that passes for information on the web is sometimes irritatingly idiotic ;). That said, asking Mike Reagan for advice, in my experience, is never bad advice.
Hope that explains my point of view in detail. In this fellow's case, pursuing satisfaction from the dealer or seller makes the most sense to me as the first recourse, as he was sold defective merchandise. That's not the manufacturer's responsibility or even likely their fault, in most cases.
"Any other comments and advice are off the mark." I think this goes a little too far, Neil. I think it was reasonable for him to ask Lionel, as I advised, even though his CW-80 had the "G" date code. By replacing the original models with so little fuss, Lionel seems to have tacitly admitted that the original design was severely flawed. So it does them credit and burnishes their reputation that they have so willingly replaced those without the "G" prefix. However, since this is one of the later models, it is not reasonable to expect Lionel to replace it. Still, I see no harm in asking politely.
Neil,I would agree that making such negative comments about a used transformer being Lionel's problem, but I disagree that the customer service people shouldn't be more 'servicable'. To be told to make an International Phone Call to find out about a product is WRONG, and if the OP emailed Lionel I can gaurantee Mike Reagan would feel the same and get it corrected ASAP.
Whoa, I'm sympathetic to your bad luck, but the criticism of Lionel is totally unfounded. This set was bought USED. One has no idea how it has been used, abused or otherwise treated. The transformer may have accidentally been dropped in the toilet or sink, or otherwise mistreated. No company that I'm aware of warranties customers other than the original purchaser. For good reason one might add. The person to complain to and seek redress from is the seller, pure and simple. Any other comments and advice are off the mark.
Mike is still at Lionel, I had a conversation with him a couple of weeks ago.
Many of us believe that the "date code" (actually the "Made in China" code) translates thusly:
G = major revision from unreliable to quite reliable, Four digits of the type 1109 = November, 2009.
The CW-80 model was designed to be replaced, not serviced. No, not even by Lionel service centers.
Note the tab "Search our Community" on the right side of this page. Click on it and enter CW-80 or scroll down to the bottom of the first page and click "more options" (or something like that) to refine your search. You might start with those authored by bfskinner. There are a lot of them.
The "girls" who man the Lionel service phone desk have very little authorlity. If I were you, I would WRITE to Michael Reagan, assuming that he is still in charge of Customer Service. No guarantees, but he has the reputation of being fair and reasonable, and has helped me personally.
Sorry to hear that you are having problems with the Lionel CW-80, a.k.a. the "Can't Work 80".
There have been at least two previous postings on here about the CW-80 and how to try to repair or make one work. One of the methods, if I am correct, was to swap the U terminal with the output terminal for accessories to make it work. I might have this wrong, so check the voltages with a multimeter before trying to use it with your trains.
If that don't help and Lionel don't help you, there is always the local train show and sale or ebay or choochooauctions.com to buy a low priced transformer to replace your current transformer.
I have the older postwar ZW & Z by Lionel and a couple of other transformers, but no CW-80. The only drawback is that you will have to add some new electronics to the older transformers to make them safe with the newer engines with electronics in them.
Lee F.
Yes it does have a "G" in the date code. I called Lionel yesterday, they told me without a receipt they could not do anything for me. The girl also said they don't have any CW80's in stock and are expecting more in from china soon.
I then asked her if she could tell me what the date code meant, and she told me she had no idea what it meant, and I could call the factory in CHINA to tell me what it meant.
Man talk about not making them like they used to.. The products and the help.
Sorry for the rant. My next question is does anyone have a link handy for a write up on the in's and out's of one of these puppy's?
Thanks
Does your transformer have a 4-digit date code that does not have a "G" prefix? If so, you have one of the early failure-prone models. Call Lionel and give them the date code. Do not tell them that you took it apart--they have been known to ship a new transformer without even asking you to send in the old one.
Welcome to the forum, sorry, can't help ya on the tempermental CW80 transformer. There has been many, many postings on the good, bad, and ugly of the CW80.
Bill T.
Hello all,
This will be my first post. I mostly have post war collection, but have since bought my son a thomas set, and just bought a used polar express set.
My problem is the transformer does not work. I have disassembled it and have come up with the following. No AC voltage at the train side. 9.2 VAC at the acc. side.
I checked the inline fuse and it checked out fine.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
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