I must admit I've never focused on the firebox side castings when looking at the Type VIII engines. All I've ever done is check to see if the engine was a bell/light combination or just one or the other. I'll have to start paying attention to this detail.
In the meantime there is something that is worth investigating. Quite a few of the Flyer castings have casting number identification which, if present, is usually on one of the inside surfaces. It would be worth taking apart one of the engines without holes in firebox area and one with them present and examine the inside of the shells to see if the boiler halves have part numbers and if the numbers are different for the left and right sides of the two boiler shells. If they are then, even though they are both classified as Type VIII, we would at least know that the difference mattered enough to Flyer way back when to warrant separate identifiers.
Ray, I'll bring the Ouija Board if you think it will help.
Lover of all things Gilbert, truly a man ahead of his time.
Mersenne6 - I agree with Northwoods in that your description about prewar Flyers being a bit hard at times to "catalog". Might I suggest we hold a seance so that we may get some definitive info???
Ray
Bayville, NJ
Life is what happens to youWhile you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
mersenne6 Did Flyer give this modified engine a number - maybe and maybe not. If they did it most likely was just stamped on the box used to ship it to the customer and when the end user (some kid somewhere) got the train his first thought was not about people such as ourselves some 70+ years in the future who would spend endless hours wringing our foreheads over precise engine identification, but rather about how neat that engine looked running on the loop of track around the Christmas tree. Depending on the nature of the kid and the family they might have kept the original boxes for awhile or, if they decided they really wanted to make things miserable for those of us in the future, they tossed the packaging, the interim Flyer number was lost to the ages, and those of us in the future are now forced to spend our time on forums like this one trying to sort things out. As for the Type VIII without either a bell or a firebox light - in the absence of any other documentation - my choice would be to just view them as modified #3322's. I suppose just for reference amongst us Flyer fans we could call them 3322NBL's (No Bell or Light).
Did Flyer give this modified engine a number - maybe and maybe not. If they did it most likely was just stamped on the box used to ship it to the customer and when the end user (some kid somewhere) got the train his first thought was not about people such as ourselves some 70+ years in the future who would spend endless hours wringing our foreheads over precise engine identification, but rather about how neat that engine looked running on the loop of track around the Christmas tree.
Depending on the nature of the kid and the family they might have kept the original boxes for awhile or, if they decided they really wanted to make things miserable for those of us in the future, they tossed the packaging, the interim Flyer number was lost to the ages, and those of us in the future are now forced to spend our time on forums like this one trying to sort things out.
As for the Type VIII without either a bell or a firebox light - in the absence of any other documentation - my choice would be to just view them as modified #3322's. I suppose just for reference amongst us Flyer fans we could call them 3322NBL's (No Bell or Light).
Ahhhh Mersenne6, What a picture you paint of us! Suddenly I see myself in an entirely different light. Here I am deep in the bowels of my basement train room, pouring over the books I have collected and the toy trains from a different era trying to give order to chaos. Ok , the order out of chaos part I kind of like.
Thanks for a great description of the likely way in which Flyer dealt with providing product for any retailer to sell. . It certainly does provide one explanation for why there are so many variations to Flyer items. I like your idea of using the 3322 identification for the Type VIII engines with additional identifiers. In that case I have mainly 3322s NBL. I have one 33322 NBWL (no bell with firebox light). In your examination of the boiler castings for the 3322 have you noticed a difference between those with the firebox light and those without? My 3322 with the firebox light has holes in the lower skirting to let the light shine out. The others do not. Do you think this represents a different casting?
The only bad thing about this discussion is that now you have added more things to my shopping list. But at least I can identify them more easily.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby (Deep in the bowels of my basement trainroom)
Northwoods Flyer
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Well that puts in in a much better light. I didn't realize prewar Flyer would change things up so easily.. thus confusing all of us train nutz.
So I'll be happy to say now that I have a pre 1936 3300 series engine with firebox light.
so that would be a type VIII with firebox light pre 1936 (as denoted by roller pickups)
Now I can stop wringing my hands and brow.
The hard thing will all this is how in the world do you price one of these since I'm seeing prices all over the place in Flyer Catalog for different 3300's (not that I'm worried since I feel at $150 for my engine I did well)
No hijacking- just clarification. I'm sorry, I should have made reference to your earlier answer since this is the same question and the same series of pictures that the OP made a few weeks ago. However, since there seemed to be a desire to have A number associated with the engine/tender combination I figured the number offered is probably the best guess.
Gray Cat, as Northwoods noted in his first answer to your question you can find Type VIII engines with all the combinations of presence and absence of bells and firebox lights as well as other changes to trim and tender. What you have remember is Flyer was in the business of making and selling toys and, unlike Lionel in the prewar period, they really didn't worry too much about anything else.
The reason you can find all of these variations is because Flyer was willing to make changes to suit prospective customers. In the case of the variety of Type VIII engines Northwoods owns and has seen I'm sure they are the results of price point decisions on the part of the customer which probably were offered in a manner like the following:
Prospective buyer for a store says, "I really like the #3325 you have there but I know my market and I can't sell it for enough to make a profit - how can you change it so the base price is X instead of the current Y?" ...and Flyer says, "No sweat, we'll drop the bell and the firebox light and you will have your engine."
Over the years I've photographed dozens of boxed sets of trains and boxed rolling stock in various collections none of which can be found in any Flyer catalog nor in any of the surviving Flyer records. Given this fact and the variation of Flyer production the only way to have an absolute definitive answer to the original question would be to have found the engine and tender with its original boxes. If the original packing isn't present then about the best you can do is what I offered in the earlier post. As for the Type VIII without either a bell or a firebox light - in the absence of any other documentation - my choice would be to just view them as modified #3322's. I suppose just for reference amongst us Flyer fans we could call them 3322NBL's (No Bell or Light).
I don't mean to hijack the thread, but this is the external track trip for reversing engines. I think that it was only used on electric outline engines.
No, the difference between the two engines was the presence of a bell. I suppose you could have one that had the bell taken out at some time in the past or you could just have the standard Flyer situation which happened all the time - they were making the non-bell ringing engines and all they had for production that day were superstructures with the other markings. This kind of situation is everywhere in the Flyer lineup. For example they had separate numbers for 4 wheel vs. 8 wheel freight cars, however, you can find 8 wheel bodies on 4 wheel frames and conversely.
As for the external track trip - that was only for the earlier locomotives which had external trips extending from either side of the engine. If you go over to the last page of Northwoods Flyer's very informative thread on Pre-war Flyer you can see the track trip and the bars they tripped on the #3015 engine in the posts he and I made on the 1927 Jeffersonian set (in the picture I posted of the complete set the external track trip is at track level just behind the engine).
Wasn't there also a trackside "post" for activating that lever? Or am I thinking of something else?
Becky
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
mersenne6 very interesting information. Something new has come to light, which either confuses the issue more or helps. I can very faintly see the numbers 3325 on the boiler side under the area where the smoke stack is. Is this where they were if they were on the engine? This engine has a firebox glow and no cam for a bell ringer. I would imagine that firebox glow engines would NOT have a bell also? Isn't the bell turned on and off in the cab? There is no evidence of a lever mount there.
The boiler casting is Greenberg Type VIII.. The tender is Greenberg Type IV.. The engine has roller pickups which means it was made before 1936. The only combination catalog numbers that meet these requirements are 3323 and 3324. The respective locomotive numbers were 3322 and 3325. The difference between #3322 and #3325 is the presence of the ringing bell in #3325. Therefore your engine is most likely a #3322 and the engine/tender combination is #3323 which would put the date of manufacture as 1934. The lever behind the driver is a lockout for the remote control. Lever down and the engine reverses remotely, up and it doesn't. With lever up the direction of the locomotive is determined by the lever sticking up through a hold in the top of the boiler just in front of the cab.
Thanks again Ray, yes I'll keep watching. I'm curious to learn more about this Prewar Stuff.. I've been a Postwar Gilbert collector long enough that not too many questions left to ask.. it's refreshing to learn.
Gray Cat - All your points are possible. But since I don't have any catalogs from the 1930's (yet), only from the 1920's, I'm affraid I can't be of any further help to you. I'm sure someone else will have the info you are looking for. Just keep watching, I know I will.
Thanks Ray, I've been to that site before.. nice pics but not much help. Looking at a Flyer catalog I have and comparing my engine to some wide gauge of the same era.. I'm guessing my engine is an earlier 30's production based on some comparisons. It seems the wide gauge engines I see pictured that have flags and brass flag holders are earlier 30's also compared to the photo of the type VIII in the link that engine has brass sliders for pickups where my engine has rollers (is this earlier before Coleman started to cut corners due to loss of interest in his line?)
I'm still curious as to what that little lever behind the drivers is supposed to do?? The type VIII pictured in the link has the same thing.
http://www.binnsroad.co.uk/railways/amfly/locos/typeviiia.html
Gray Cat - Check this out as it might be of some help to you. I personally can't be positive about this loco but maybe others can help also. Good luck!
OH and if it's any help it does have a red bulb out back for firebox glow.
Can anyone help me to identify this engine? I know or believe it to be of the 3300 series, but I would like to pinpoint it if possible. Also there is a small lever behind the rear driver.. when pulled down it allows a bar/lever to contact some sort of cam on a drive gear. What is this? I was hoping it was some sort of bell ringer but I guess not. Thanks
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