It has taken more time than I thought it would but both lamps are now operating as intended. Just don't ask me to explain what I did to eliminate the dim lamp issue. I essentially disconnected and reconnected the wiring for all accessories that operated in conjunction with an isolated track, cleaned the track, made sure all lock ons were making good contact with the track, and the problem disappeared.
Thanks to all who offered assistance. Now off to the next issue.
Swede
A and U are of course just fine.
Bob Nelson
Thanks for your reply, Bob. The only difference is that the third transformer is currently hooked up using terminals A and U. Later this week, I will take another stab at the wiring and report what I come up with.
The accessory transformer powering either signal (transformer 3) needs to have a common return with the transformer powering the track. Since there two signals, one on each track, all three transformers have to have a common connection, that is, one side of each of transformers 1, 2, and 3, must connect to the outside rails of both tracks, and to the green lamps of both signals.
So, for example, if you are using terminals A and U of transformers 1 and 2 for track voltage and terminals A and C of transformer 3 as a fixed 16-volt accessory voltage, terminals A of all three transformers and both green lamps would connect to the outside rails of both tracks. Both red lamps would connect to terminal C of transformer 3, and the common of each of the two signals would connect the control rail of the track that it is associated with.
Is any of this different from what you have now?
Thank you for the response, Bob. I am utilizing three 1033 transformers on the layout. Transformer 1 is the power source for track one and train one. Transformer 2 is the power source for track 2 and train 2. Transformer 3 is the power source for stand alone accessories located around track one and track two and also is the power source for additional accessories controlled by isolated tracks located at various locations around track one and track two, including the 450 signal bridge.Signal one is wired to track one and signal two is wired to track two. Does the wiring I have used lend itself to the situation you described?
Thanks, Swede
Swede,
The fact that you see a dim green light suggests to me that part of the problem could be that the misbehaving signal's green lamp may be wired to the outside rails of the track corresponding to the signal that works properly and not to the outside rails of its own track. It's possible that, because of voltage drop in the outside rails that the outside rails of the two tracks are a little different. When the green lamp is connected to the outside rails of the same track that has the control rail, it should be completely off when it is shunted by the dead short circuit of the train wheels.
If this is part of the problem, another way to fix it is to connect the outside rails of the two tracks together locally. In addition to eliminating any difference in the voltage drops, this has the advantage of reducing the voltage drop generally between the train and the transformer by paralleling the return side of the circuit. I recommend it wherever tracks happen to be close together, for that reason.
Thank you for the response, Pete. I have not had time to work on the 450 since my last post, but have made a copy of your information in case I fail to get the current hookup working properly and want to try an alternative.
Page 74 Classic Toy Trains March 2008 article, "Wire a more reliable Lionel signal bridge."
I built this circuit and it works well. I use it to operate some action accessories other than signals.
I believe the RatShack parts numbers no longer are valid, and with the current state of their business you'll probably have to buy from a real electronics supply house.
Pete
"You can’t study the darkness by flooding it with light." - Edward Abbey -
Here's my $0.02 I have (2) 450 signal bridges signalling tracks at each end of a double crossover. I agree with GUNRUNNERJOHN - relays are the way to go.
I use two 24 V relays tripped by insulated rails on a constant 20 V circuit - one relay for each 450 bridge. Two wires run from the normally closed contact and two wires run from the normally open contacts. Each wire feeds a red or green bulb. No dim bulbs on my layout!
All my switch indicator and signal bridge bulbs are LEDs from christmas light strings. They are all 1.8 V and are on a separate circuit fed by an old 12V AC transformer. It steps 20V AC to 1.8V AC. I went to that complexity because if I buy a string or two after the holidays, the bulbs are cheap and the sockets are provided with the lights. Plus the wiring is salvageable for low voltage use. I admit, It has it's problems, but I have the time to trace the occasional short.
Had a chance to add a second parallel 1891 bulb this evening but got the same result. Having the dim red is not the end of the world but something is wrong with the wiring.
That should work: They're both 14-volt lamps, and the 1891's current (240 milliamperes) is specified to be twice that of the 53. Since you've got exactly the same circuit for both signals, but one works and the other not quite, my guess is that at least one of the lamps is out of spec. But adding a second parallel lamp should surely do the trick.
Thanks for the quick response, Bob. I am using 53's for the signals and 1891's for the parallel bulbs.
What lamp types are you using, both in the signals and as the second lamps?
The first signal, wired per Bob Nelson's suggestion, works perfectly. On the second signal, I soldered a new common wire to one of the two bulbs, adjacent to one of the two nubs that secure the bulb in the lamp socket. I fished the wire through a hole in the side of the signal body provided by Lionel as part of the bulb locking mechanism and ran it out the base and connected it and the other two wires as per Bob's suggestion. Unless activated when a car enters the isolated zone, the green light is bright and the red light is very dim. When activated, the green light is totally extinguished and the red light is bright. The third bulb, in parallel with the red bulb, is the same for each signal. I will add a second parallel lamp to the second signal to see if the problem goes away.
Thanks for the prompt response, Srguy. I want to try Bob Nelson's approach to the second signal. Guess I'll try to cobble something together. I just haven't figured out how to secure the new common to the signal and separately secure the signal to the bridge. If I find a solution, I'll post it.
Again, thanks for your response.
Jim, did you ever hook up the 450 using Bob Nelson's approach? If so, what did you use to isolate the second signal from the bridge and what did you do to create the common for the second signal?
Hi bob, I was using (without realizing) a pre 1950 #153 signal with a resistor. So I got out another one (without a resistor) and used #1445 bulbs with 1extra lamp, but it works better (red was dimmer.. almost not on) with 2 extra lamps. It did works as you described. I just ordered some #53's and #57's and I'll be changing them all out.
Thanks
The green should be completely off. The red will be on but should be very dim. What lamps are you using, both for the signals and for the extra lamp in parallel with the red one?
Sorry I can't help much on how to wire up a 450 as I just used a simple toggle to go from green to red, avoiding any track power connection.
But one thing I can advise is to swap the bulb positions so the green bulb is on top and the red bulb is on the bottom. Railroads use high green and low red instead of a traffic signal setup with red on the top and green on the bottom.
Every single 450 I've ever seen comes with a red bulb on top and the green bulb on the bottom. Easy to swap the bulbs, but you'd think someone would figure this out over all the years this particular style signal bridge has been issued.
Best pic I could find that sort of shows the 450 on our layout:
Matt from Anaheim, CA and Bayfield, COClick Here for my model train photo website
Thanks for all the info, but getting back to the lamp trick, why is the red still on (very dim) with the bright green and the green still on (very dim) with the bright red? By the way talking about the 450, I put a rubber washer on the screw that mounts the signal head that runs down to the leg with only 2 terminals and then ran a separate ground wire and attached it to the same mount screw (outside of washer) and both signals work independently of each other. I was hoping to use the lamp trick to operate the 450 also.
No, if you use a supply other than the track voltage, whether with a relay or with the lamp trick, you can still sense the train completely independently of the track voltage. The independent supply must share its return with the track supply. If the relay supply is AC--an accessory supply on the same transformer that powers the trains, for example--then the relay must be an AC relay, or a (cheaper) DC relay with a bridge rectifier to allow it to operate on AC. Otherwise, a DC relay requires a DC supply, which cannot be made from that accessory supply but must use a separate transformer.
The lamp trick doesn't care whether its supply is AC or DC, nor whether it is the track voltage or an accessory voltage.
ADCX Rob Of course, that would require the complexity of a relay and independent power supply.
Of course, that would require the complexity of a relay and independent power supply.
Rob
Of course, a SPDT relay driven by the isolated track section would do the trick just fine.
Hi, Thanks for your quick reply.Yes I have the extra bulb(s) between the supply voltage and the control rail. Still not getting it I don't have a #57 bulb so I tried a # 363 a #1445 18v and 2 #53's wired together and the red is still on but not as bright as the green. When I jump the control rail the extra bulbs light along with the red on the 153 but the green is still on but not as bright as the red. I guess I'm using the wrong bulbs or am I still doing something wrong?
Have you connected the extra lamp, the number-57 in the diagram, between the supply voltage and the control rail? It's not there for looks. It's what turns off the red lamp when there's no train on the control rail.
Hi, I'm a new member and I have a question. I'm trying to wire a 153 signal by following your written instructions and using the diagram above,. When I put the wire from the green lamp on the transformer common or (outside rail) and put the wires from the red lamps on the transformer voltage or (center rail) both lamps are lit. When the signal common is applied to the control rail (insulated rail) both green and red lamps are still lit. Am I'm doing something wrong. I have tried all different combination's of bulbs. Thanks for any help you can give.
I have been trying to figure out how the signal heads are mounted. It looks, from the information I have, that each one has a 4-36 x 1/8" screw into its bottom through a hole in the top or bottom chord of the top truss. I'm thinking that you might use a #4 nylon washer between the head and the chord and replace the metal screw with nylon. Unfortunately, it will be hard to find anything but a 4-40 screw. But if the nylon screw is no longer than needed, you may be able to force it far enough into the hole in the signal head to do the job.
Another possibility is to drill and re-tap the hole in the head for a 6-32 nylon screw. This might also require drilling out the holes in the chord unless they are already a little oversized.
By the way, it looks like the stock lamps are number 53s, which Lionel calls 53-301 or L53(R), and 53-302 or L53(G).
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.
Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month