Getting Ready to start construction on my Flyer platform.. it's going to be an 8'x9' modeled after a '50's era Store display.. I'm going to try to cram as many features and operating accessories into this space as possible.. One of the things I'm going to incorporate will be block control.. I think this will be a neat little feature. I copied this from an article in one of my CTT's. A little work on the bench this morning and I have what are supposed to be the contact track sections for block control with a Flyer automatic semaphore. Can't wait to get this underway.
Has anyone used this type of track section yet? I also imagine that I can still use this setup for one train operation with no ill effects. But when I want to pull that freight line out on the main with the passenger consist I can have both going around the rails at the same time until I decide to pull one into the siding. I haven't tried this in practice yet, but I'm thinking I might need an overide to power the dead section on the block if I pull one of the trains into the siding before the second contact block which brings power back up to the dead section. If anyone has experience with this setup I'd like to hear anything you have to say or add. Thanks
Lover of all things Gilbert, truly a man ahead of his time.
Gray Cat:
This may not be what you are going to want to read. My impression is that it is a lot of bother to make up those little sections and splice them in, cute as they look. When I want an insulated block section, I simply take out my Dremel with a cutting wheel and cut an air gap in the track anywhere I want - on the variable post rail, of course. As long as the ties on either side are nailed or screwed down and the rails are in true alignment, the train wheels don't care. That said, I wouldn't do it on a curved section. Just asking for trouble, IMHO; train wheels have enough to do to get through most curves. Done. Fiber pins? Why bother?
However, if it's pure research you are interested in and wish to use that method simply because you can, then war on that procedure! Sometimes, it's productive to think like a dog. Why does a dog lick...? Because he can!
Regards,
Timboy, The Charlie Sheen of CTT
Hey Timboy, those pics are of my completed track sections.. already done did it. I'm laying all the ground work before starting construction in a few weeks. This way I can just blast through this. I do want to run two trains on the outside line so this might be a neat feature.. letting people see how Gilbert designed this system to run two trains one behind the other without fear of a rearend collision. The way I did those track sections they are solid as can be.. fiber pins and an added tie section under the 3/4" piece of contact section.
Tim, why the variable rail? Doesn't that preclude using the transformer's accessory voltage?
Bob Nelson
I admit I didn't fully understand what you were doing at first and I also find it interesting that only Bob and I have weighed in on your post. Apparently, no one else got it either. You are activating a Semaphore by completing the circuit via the tender pick-up wheels to it through the variable post rail. I have a couple of concerns. How reliable is it? Is it more reliable than the finicky #697 pressure track trip? Is it as reliable as the nearly 100% dependable five-digit electric track trip? Also, what about hauling a long string of illuminated passenger cars over it? Will they complete the circuit or does it take something more robust, like an open-frame motor? If illuminated passenger cars will complete the circuit, then will that put a lot of stress on the Semaphore solenoid and burn it out? How fast does the train have to be travelling over that section to get enough voltage to the Semaphore. When I say "fast" what I really mean is how many volts need to be sent through to reliably activate it.
Bob: Variable post most certainly. Gray Cat did not exactly specify, but it has to be the variable post that is supplying the track voltage. Those leads on those isolated sections don't come FROM a power source, they ARE the power source - for the Semaphore. The black wire on the Semaphore goes permanently to the base post. One track section goes to red and one track section goes to green. Red for "down" to close or deaden the Semaphore block section and green for "up" to open it. Gray Cat. Do I have it right? Bob, you are the one who doesn't want to see a voltage spike from miss-matched voltages. I didn't want to give this up but my throttles are set all over the place and everything works just fine. In fact, I don't even see a spark when the tender wheels pass from one transformer set around the 60 mph mark on a level stretch to another for a 2% grade set at nearly the 100 mph mark. I think a key element in Flyer trains running smoothly is cleanliness. I use a citrus-based solvent to thoroughly clean all plastic wheels (you wouldn't believe the crud that comes off!) and a wire wheel on my bench grinder to polish all metal wheels and sliders. I do that procedure when I place a "new" train on the tracks. I also run a track cleaning car around once a week with 90% alcohol dampened pads. No dirt, carbon or oil on the tracks. I want metal against metal, so that if there IS sparking, there is no carbonization. But I digress and TMI. lol
Timboy, The American Flyer Nerd
Tim, I understood that the control rails were meant to operate the semaphore, not to power the train. When an accessory is activated from a control rail, whether the outside rail used by three-railers or the short segments that you two-railers are using, the accessory can be returned to any voltage that differs from the voltage that the wheels will apply to the control rail by an amount appropriate to operate the accessory. Often, as with Lionel non-derailing turnouts, this is the other side of the track circuit, that is, the center rail or, for postwar Flyer, the rail opposite to the control rail. The disadvantage of using the track voltage is of course that it may not be great enough to operate the accessory when the train is travelling at a low speed. From your first paragraph, I can see that you understand this limitation.
I have located the instruction sheet for what I think is the semaphore that we're talking about, the 761. It has 5 wires: Black is common or "base", white is switched base for supplying the stop-block rail, yellow is accessory voltage (17 volts relative to base in the diagram), and red and green are for activating the solenoids that move the signal arm and operate the switch to start and stop the train. The red and green wires are intended to be connected to the yellow wire by the pushbuttons of the controller. No internal wiring is shown; but it is obvious that, in order for it to work, the solenoids must be returned to the black base wire inside the signal. There is no connection of the semaphore to the variable track voltage.
The semaphore accessory cannot be used with control rails to duplicate its intended operation with the controller operation, that is, by applying accessory voltage to the red and green wires to the solenoids. But, with the control rails on the variable rail, the solenoids can at least be fed the track voltage. If it is high enough, the thing should work. So you are right about the need to put them in that rail.
However, the accessory could perfectly well have been designed with the solenoids returned to the accessory voltage, which is present internally on the yellow wire. The controller, or the control rail, would then connect the red or green wire to the base. Then the solenoids would always be actuated by the full accessory voltage, regardless of the train's speed. This may not be a difficult modification. But there is a danger, as with modifying Lionel O27 turnouts for accessory voltage, that a train stopped on a control rail could easily burn out a solenoid coil. A fix for this would be to wire the solenoids to the same sort of capacitive-discharge circuit that I recommend for the turnouts. One would then need to run another wire into the semaphore to keep the lamp on.
Bob:
I'm with you, to a point. I think we could all use more elaboration on the part of, "...the accessory can be returned to any voltage that differs from the voltage that the wheels will apply to the control rail by an amount appropriate to operate the accessory." It sounds perhaps as though you are thinking about using the base post rail on the short, insulated track section to complete the circuit while the Semaphore draws power from a fixed post. Trouble is, the Semaphore just isn't wired up internally for that.
I am going to set up an experiment to get to the bottom of this on a practical basis. This may take me a couple days, but I will report back to all with my findings. I suspect one thing I'll find is that it takes an open frame motor to re-direct enough current to energize the Semaphore coils; much like a five-digit track trip that will not trip via illuminated pax cars.
I don't see how the size of the motor makes a difference. My understanding is that the control rail is simply connected to the rail that it is embedded in through the wheels of the truck. The connection is made regardless of the amount of current that the motor is drawing, or whether it is drawing current at all.
It's not the size of the motor I am speculating on, unless you are referring to a light as a kind of motor. I'll deal with the issue of whether an illuminated car will active the solenoid later. First, I want to get a workable model on Gray Cat's scenario.
I got motivated and set up an experiment. It was immediately obvious to me that track voltage is not sufficient; not at a "normal" running speed, not at a "slow" speed and - surprisingly - not at full throttle. I know I have the Semaphore wired correctly and I know I have my experiment set up correctly. I know this because my control was to see if I could activate the Semaphore merely by jumping the control section past the insulated joint to the variable post rail at full throttle without a train on the tracks. The Semaphore activated. Then I wondered if it was simply a case of the control rail section being too short to allow enough contact time for the solenoid to energize. Well, that became problematic because to get more contact time, I had to slow the loco down and then maybe the solenoid didn't get enough voltage. ACK! I don't think the solution is to lengthen the contact rail length because I think that would cause the loco to stall or maybe it would coast through, but either way it's not optimal.
I will re-do the wiring as you have suggested, with the yellow going to the fixed voltage post and the control rail located on the base post. Based on the above, I kinda have my doubts now and wonder if Gray Cat really does have this thing working yet. Maybe he is busy holding services at his local church right now. lol
I can not get the Semaphore to operate by using the type of control rail that Gray Cat showed. When I put it on the variable post rail and took a lead from that to the red wire, while the black wire remained on the base post; no activation at any loco speed. Yet it did work when I test-jumped the lead directly to the variable post rail at full throttle with no loco on the tracks. Perhaps, as you suggested, a capacitor could be useful but I don't want to do it. Why not just stick with the pressure trip in the first place. I also tried putting the control rail on the base post side, connecting that to the black wire of the Semaphore, disconnecting the green wire and putting the red wire on the accessory post. The result was a dead short. It's possible that I did something wrong, but I triple-checked everything and still no luck. I'm at a loss as to determine how Gray Cat has his control rail activating a Semaphore. I have to speculate that he has a mock-up done but not an actual working model yet. That makes sense to me because a simple arrangement like this would have been discovered in the 50's or 60's or 70's by some bright minds back then and we would all know about it as common knowledge and we would all be doing it as common practice. Obviously, we don't and we aren't because it doesn't work on a 2-rail system. That is where I am with this and I'll just have to wait for Gray Cat to chime in. So, Gray Cat; the ball is in your court and I will wait with breathless anticipation to learn how you are making this work. I hope you can prove me wrong and there is a simple explanation. I wouldn't mind taking the pressure track trip out of the loop if there was a more simple set-up.
Timboy, The Stumped American Flyer Nerd
Guys:
I've been trying to figure out why this concept doesn't work on a 2-rail system. It's actually quite obvious. It does not complete a circuit on a 2-rail system. On a 3-rail system, I am guessing that it takes current from one outside rail and puts it into that insulated control section on the other outside rail via the loco or tender wheels. That insulated control section then completes the circuit to the device momentarily and momentarily is enough time to energize it. That said, I would still think that a circuit could get closed on a 2-rail system when the back wheel of the front wheelset is on the energized rail while the front wheel of the front wheelset is on the insulated section. Apparently, that is way too short of a contact time to energize the device and also iffy reliability.
So any way I slice or dice, it just doesn't work. Myth busted.
Timboy, The Flyer Myth Buster
Timboy Guys: I've been trying to figure out why this concept doesn't work on a 2-rail system. It's actually quite obvious. It does not complete a circuit on a 2-rail system. On a 3-rail system, I am guessing that it takes current from one outside rail and puts it into that insulated control section on the other outside rail via the loco or tender wheels. That insulated control section then completes the circuit to the device momentarily and momentarily is enough time to energize it. That said, I would still think that a circuit could get closed on a 2-rail system when the back wheel of the front wheelset is on the energized rail while the front wheel of the front wheelset is on the insulated section. Apparently, that is way too short of a contact time to energize the device and also iffy reliability. So any way I slice or dice, it just doesn't work. Myth busted. Regards, Timboy, The Flyer Myth Buster
I didn't really read each and every post yet.. this is a quick reply at the end.
This concept is copied from and article in CTT April 1992. The wiring seems quite simple. There are two contact blocks. One is about a train length after the semaphore and another about halfway around the loop from the no. 761 and a dead block at least 20" long just before the semaphore. The first trip causes the signal to drop into a red position and deadens the insulated "block". The second trip energizes that same insulated block.
The semaphore does need an internal modification to work with this setup. Both coil wires need to be unsoldered from their connection, the solder on a small length of insulated wire. Attach this lead to the no. 761's yellow wire where it meets the black wire coming from the light bulb.
Here is a pic lifted from the magazine.
Gray Cat;
AHA! Well, you didn't say that in any of your posts, now did you. And yet suddenly here we go... Where you trying to stump the best and the brightest? Tsk. Tsk. Tsk.
Timboy, The Best and Brightest
Also Tim, Guys.. the #697 pressure switches are not that reliable. I'd sure hate to see one of my gorgeous Royal Blue Freight trains go barreling into the back of a Heavyweight observation car 'cause a #697 failed and I wasn't quick enough on the throttle..
Neither would I and I agree with you on the reliability of the #697 pressure track trip.
But seriously, you could have said that there was an infernal modification of the Semaphore. Jeez. I think I did a great experiment and spent a lot of time doing it. You owe. Dude. You owe.
Timboy, The American Flyer Nerd Who is Soon To Be Censured on CTT
That modification is exactly the one that I proposed above, except for the capacitive-discharge precaution. I do think it's a little risky without that.
Timboy Gray Cat; Neither would I and I agree with you on the reliability of the #697 pressure track trip. But seriously, you could have said that there was an infernal modification of the Semaphore. Jeez. I think I did a great experiment and spent a lot of time doing it. You owe. Dude. You owe. Regards, Timboy, The American Flyer Nerd Who is Soon To Be Censured on CTT
Tim, as the self appointed "Myth Buster" that experiment should have been a breeze.. hehe.. only thing you didn't get to do in this episode was to blow something up!
Now what you need to do is modify one of your Semaphores and give this a whirl on your layout. Test results will be anticipated...
Yes it is. I also have made numerous observations and recommendations on this subject. You and I reign supreme. I freely admit that you have forgotten more than I will ever know about the THEORY of electricity. But I am the one who shows how to roll with the experimentation process of taking theory and examining it in the disinfecting light of experimentation - as applied to a 2-rail platform. I have done that time after time after time. I am the King of Experimentation with American Flyer. YOU are the King of Theorists. Shall we co-exist and work together to explore the boundaries that yet exist on doing more with vintage 2-rail technology? I suggest that we have just scratched the surface.
Regards and respect,
Timboy, The - Thomas Edison of American Flyer- Well, Kinda, Sorta, You Know
You dog and I mean that in the most positive way. I have you in my sights - and I mean that in a cerebral way.
Timboy, The Avenger...
Timboy Gray Cat; You dog and I mean that in the most positive way. I have you in my sights - and I mean that in a cerebral way. Regards, Timboy, The Avenger...
That would be "Old Dog".. and thanks for the notoriety.. please test this contraption out so I know I won't blow up my Flyer Line ala Gomez Addams. I can see it now.. glorious Hudson, Shining Royal Blue with handrails gleaming.. plowing into the rear end of a wonderful consist made up of Olive Green Pullmans.. Semaphore Down, engineer full well anticipating his Iron Steed coasting to a stop... when all of a sudden the Semaphore catches fire, the train doesn't stop, the cowcatcher on the Royal slams into the brass rail of the Pullman observation.. porters fly.. passengers wretch out of their sleeper bunks.. get the crane car to clean up this messssss.. all whilst Roy Orbison blares from the Jukebox "Sweet Dreams Baby"...
And Tim while we are experimenting how bout this idea..
I have a spare score motor from a pinball machine. It has a four pulse score reel that is designed on certain features to pulse four times to certain score featurer or other items. Since the track trips for the bell danger and crossing signals sort of pulse at odd rates based on when the wheels strike the contact.. I was thinking of changing this system over to a pressure switch set up that would relay to the score motor and have the flashing lights hooked up to the contact points on the four pulse score section. This would mean the score motor would run as long as the pressure trip is activated and then we could send timed pulses to the flashing lights!!! We could even use a bell ringer from the pinball!! now wouldn't that be cool. if we could only get them to alternate.
Tim, what do you think of this??
Well "Old Dog";
Thanks to you, I won't sleep a wink tonight; what with Gomez and his rear-ending (don't go there) and fire on the layout and carnage. However, I will blissfully recline to the melodious melodies of those most wondrous of all musicians; Box Car, er I mean Roy Orbison, er I mean Willie Nelson, er I mean Arlo Guthrie; singing their train songs as I hear steam whistles fade far into the night's foggy distant horizon, like a ghost of day's past; dissipating over the Moors. Sigh. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
Timboy, The Dreamer
I think YOU should set up an experiment to show how this works. Open up a blog at Blogspot.com and make posts on this and any other genius creations from your wondrously creative cranium. I will humbly follow that blog as a loyal - ah, loyal follower. You have a knowledge of vintage parts-is-parts. We will all live long and prosper and show all those 3-railer prophesiers that American Flyer 2-rail trains rule the universe and give light to the unilluminated. Oops. I did it again. Dang!
Timboy, The Gusher
Tim, thanks for the tip about Blogspot. All I'm doing now is prepping for the big day when I take saw to wood. When I do that this spring I'll document my progress. I'm really hoping to mimic one of those factory displays, putting to use as many features as old A.C. and company could design..
A boy is only limited by his imagination.
Timboy on another note.. Timboy rings like sidekick to superhero.. Hmmm what team could have a "Tim Boy the Flyer Nerd"..
American Flyer Man and Timboy the Flyer Nerd - Fighting for Truth, Justice and the Two Rail way!
Holy 2-rail! I think it's a terrific idea you have of setting up a classic vintage Flyer department store display! To the bat poles!
Timboy, The American Flyer Boy Wonder
Hey! I just finished watching all 120 episodes of the 1966 Batman!
Becky
That's "BeckyVader" on the 1966 Batman message board!
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
Hi Gray Cat,
its been a while since this post. How did your Semaphore project turn out?
Jack
Hi Jack, (glad we aren't on a plane) AF S has been on hold until springtime. I was originally going to do an 8' x 9' display emulating one of the factory designed store displays, but have since switched gears. In the room where the AF S display layout was to go I did a 4' x 9' (soon to be 6' x 9') Prewar AF display with two main lines, a small yard and a second level circle. It's loaded up with Flyer stations, Flyer PW Water Tower, Flyer PW Telegraph Poles, Flyer PW Tunnel, Marx accessories and lighting and people.. it's a real eye candy treat in a room full of pre 1960 woodrail pinballs and neon clocks plus other collectibles.. as to Flyer AF I have the track sections I made up for the semaphore waiting.. we are now going to go all out in a 1 1/2 wide garage with heat and air, dedicating the whole thing to a Flyer layout.. going to try to squeeze as much benchwork and track to go with in the area that we can while still leaving room for viewing and working. I'll keep you and the forum posted.
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