American Flyer S Layout Wiring Questions

[Gray Cat]

I'm a long time AF S Gauge collector but sadly the fleet only came out at Christmas. Well all that's about to change. I'm finally going to do my first layout/display. I'm using the AF factory display #402 as a model.

http://www.americanflyerdisplays.org/factory_displays/factory_displays_home.htm

I'm going to be adding a few tricks of my own like adding a foot in length to it making it 8' by 9' so I can add another line/8'siding to the end. This will enable me to have a deluxe passenger set and a freight alternate running the mainline. ON the second level rather than trestles, that's going to be solid with an extra straight added to each side making the oval larger and a switch on each side. This will be the logging section with sawmill and lumber loader. Under neath this I'm going to have two mine entrances with a custom bent set of Gargraves track making as small a circle as I can get away with so I can run my hand car and mining tipples in and out of the mine.. I contacted Gargraves and they said it's been bent down to a 13" circle with no problems

But anyway on to the questions.

For now I'm going to be running a ZW and a KW (since these are the only large transformers I have). I'm thinking of pulling the switch power, operating accessories and lighting from the KW, saving the KW handle and the two large handles for train motive power. I can then pull more lighting or switch power from the ZW small handles. What I'm wondering is if I can use a common buss tying all the grounds on transformers together. Or do I have to buss each individual transformer?

If anyone has any other wiring tips please feel free to jump in. This will be a work in progress so I'm sure I'll have a lot do discuss.

I'll take pictures as I go along and hopefully when I get it done I can get it's picture in CTT. This is going to be a TOY train layout reminiscent of those seen in department stores.

 

[lionelsoni]

Yes, you can connect the transformers' commons together.  (The American Flyer name for a common is "base", apparently chosen before the term was appropriated for junction transistors.)  However you allocate the transformers to the track, be sure to arrange it so that you never have to run between two blocks powered by different transformers or, worse, powered by separate outputs from the same transformer.

If you do run a common return wire from your transformers to the layout (as opposed to separate returns joined at or through the track), make sure that the wire is heavy enough to carry both transformers' return currents.  These are 15 amperes for the ZW and 10 amperes for the KW, or 25 amperes total, requiring 10 AWG wire.

However, if you can segregate your loads so that the KW handles all the accessories, you can run the two transformers out of phase.  The return currents then cancel each other to an extent; and you need only 14 AWG wire for the worst-case 15 amperes.  In this case, returning accessories through the track rather than using a separate wire actually helps to cancel some of the voltage drop.  However, I don't know how practical that is in a 2-rail situation.

[richhotrain]

Take a look at Timboy's blog.  Here is a link:

http://timmysamericanflyertrains.blogspot.com/2010/08/my-track-power-plans.html

If this guy can do it, anyone can.   LOL

Seriously, though, if I recall correctly, he has had this setup for at least a couple of years.

Rich

 

 

[Timboy]

richhotrain

Take a look at Timboy's blog.  Here is a link:

http://timmysamericanflyertrains.blogspot.com/2010/08/my-track-power-plans.html

If this guy can do it, anyone can.   LOL

Seriously, though, if I recall correctly, he has had this setup for at least a couple of years.

Rich 

One correction, Rich.  This particular layout has been in operation for close to a month with no apparent problems.  I got the original idea from Michael Koloseus, back in 1995 or so.  He used multiple #8B transformers to power up individual blocks and passed the train off to a "fresh" transformer in every block.  He did that so that a number of guys could participate in realistic operating sessions.  One guy would man one transformer and control the train when it came into his local control block.  I copied that idea about 8 years ago and ran my layout in that fashion for about 5 years with no apparent problems.  I carried that idea forward to my current layout and upgraded my transformers to #15B.  I use 8 of them; one per block and all in phase.  I found out quickly that it was critical for them to be all in phase or I would see severe sparking when the loco passed from one block/transformer to another block/transformer.  The only thing I'm considering right now is whether to upgrade my common base post wire from 14 gauge to 12 or even 10 gauge.

One caveat, I do not use any modern electronics in any of my locos or cars.  IOW's, I don't use any Dallee electronic reverse units or any kind of electronic onboard sound devices.  The voltage spike when the loco transfers from one transformer to another might short out an electronic device.  To my knowledge, it will not harm the transformer, mechanical reverse unit, open frame motor or any other such vintage component.  Apparently, they can take it, because as I mentioned above, I ran them that way for five years with no ill effects.  You do what you think is best for you.

I think it is wonderful that you want to build a vintage American Flyer display layout.  If I were in your particular situation, I would sell off my Lionel transformers on eBay and invest in #19B transformers with the assumption that I would only need two of them to run trains on two blocks.  But that is just me.

Whatever you decide to do, I also encourage you to - one way or another - post pics and details of your progress.  I choose the blog format because I post to 4 different S Gauge forums and find it much easier to update one site.

Regards,

Timboy, The American Flyer Nerd.

[Gray Cat]

What I was thinking of was using bare copper wire (the type used as ground wire from a breaker panel to ground rod) running this around underneath the platform and anywhere I want to tie in a ground just do a loop over and a quick solder connection.

Tim I hear ya on the Flyer Transformers, but rather than sell mine I'll get the layout up and running then buy Flyer Transformers when appropriate. I want to keep these Lionel Transformers. I would like to run the outside line in controlled blocks, it would be nice to have the passenger train and the freight running on the same line controlled by block controls

For now I think since KW has two fixed voltage points I plan on running switches on one perhaps  and operating accessories on the other? One handle on the KW for upper loop with spurs the other handle for mine car circle.

ZW large handle for outside high speed line, other large handle for inside loop with spurs, I could use the small handles on the ZW for lighting. This would allow me to dim it and save bulbs..

I'll be starting construction of this project in about a month and when I do I will take photos of the whole process.

 

Thanks for everything.. keep the ideas coming.!!!

[Timboy]

Gray Cat,

I will speculate that some may warn you not to run a bare wire around the underside of your layout.  The only concern I would have if I wanted to do that is of course, no other wires come into contact with it that are unintentional.  Otherwise, I see no reason why I couldn't do that.  Insulation protects against shorts.  It does not protect against voltage drop, as far as I've ever been able to ascertain.  I have "open" power lines behind my house, up high on the poles.  Believe me, if those wire come down, the very same rules apply as if they were insulated; don't touch or even go near them.  I personally don't bother with using electrical tape or liquid tape when I splice a lead into a variable post wire or base post wire.  I just make sure I am careful to keep them apart.  I do use wire nuts or shrink tubing to splice two lengths of wires together to make a longer run.  I also use insulated staples driven by a staple gun to make my runs.  It's more of a matter of convenience than anything.  I try to keep the runs logical and organized.  I understand your point about the ease of making a connection if you use bare wire.  I hate stripping bus wires under a train table.  The use of an automotive creeper does help quite a bit in getting around and reaching wires comfortably, though.  Remember folks, it wasn't all that long ago for some of us who had knob and post wiring in our houses.  It is still considered "safe", provided you don't do something stupid, like hanging a coat hanger over one!  

Regards,

Timboy, The American Flyer Nerd

[lionelsoni]

Tim and I disagree about the wisdom of running between separately powered blocks.  It sounds like it might not be a concern with your layout if it comprises four completely separate loops.  As long as Tim remembers to set the voltages the same between blocks, nothing bad will happen.  If the voltage match isn't perfect, there will be a little arcing; but, because he's using separate transformers, each presumably with its own circuit breaker, the transformers and the layout wiring (if properly sized) witl be protected.

I don't know how it is with American flyer; but many lighted Lionel cars and certainly locomotives have dual pickups connected by wire that may not be up to carrying the fault current, even if the layout wiring is.  I recall seeing a picture of one such burned out car years ago here on the forum.  Aside from that, postwar trains are indeed not vulnerable to the voltage spikes generated by this practice.

What is really dangerous is doing this trick with outputs from the same transformer.  I can't speak for Flyer, but Lionel liked to put only a single circuit breaker in transformers with multiple outputs, like the KW and ZW.  The fault current does not flow through that breaker; so the breaker will never trip when the outputs get connected together, as by a train passing between blocks.  Coincidentally, the KW is the only transformer that I know Lionel issued a warning about, in very small print:  "Note that the circuit breaker does not protect binding post comginations A-B, B-D, and C-U."

I see no problem with a bare common wire, particularly if you ground it.  After all, the rails themselves are bare.

The KW has two fixed-voltage terminals, C, which is 6 volts to U (common) and D, which is 20 volts to U.  The former is too low for most purposes and the latter, too high.  You can get a more useful 14 volts between C and D; but the fact that it doesn't share a common with the track voltages could be a problem in some cases.  By the way, note that the C-U combination, as Lionel warns, is not protected.

[Gray Cat]

I'm not worried about the bare ground wire as long as the other wires are insulated (which they will be)..

 

This information about the KW is interesting. I wasn't aware totally of the 6v and 20v.. since I'm only going to have 4 lines I guess I can use the Handles on the KW for two and the large handles on the ZW for two lines with the small handles on the ZW for switches, lighting and operation of accessories.. since there are adjustable they can be dialed in to the voltage I'll need I imagine.

 

Tim I checked out your blog. Very nice work!! Nice.. I'm not going to be doing anything that involved just a simple 8'x9' model of a self liquidating display as they called them. The room where it's going has 9 woodrail pinballs, a jukebox, a coke machine and other arcade games all from the 40's to 50's..