If anyone here has seen the layout packs that you can download from Kalmbach, you may have seen one called High Speed in 6 by 12 Feet. If so, it features a number of different radius curves so that you can run modern engines and Lionel postwar on the same track, since the radius is larger than the standard 31 inches.
In any case, if any of you have seen the layout in question, I built it, but I am absolutely stuck on where the insulating pins go on the two pairs of 0-72 switches. There are two switches that are directly connected to each other on the end that each has one fiber pin. I asked my train dealer what he thought I should do to connect them and where the insulating pins should be in order to work correctly, and he had no idea.
This is the one weakness that I think these layouts have -- they apparently assume that you'll automatically know what to do. If anyone here has seen the layout, or are familiar with it and could take a look at it and tell me how to install the 0-72 switches so that they function correctly and separate the outer loop from the inner loop at the same time, I'd really appreciate it.
Thanks in advance!
You'll probably get more help for this on the Classic Toy Trains forums, but to isolate the inner and outer loops (I assume two transformaers are used?) you would normally put the fiber pin on the center rail. As I recall, the remote control Lionel turnouts have an anti-derail feature that flips it to match an oncomign train, that uses a fiber pin on one of the outside rails, so you may in fact need a fiber pin in all 3 rails at the joint between two sections like that.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I'm not a Lionel guy. But it appears to me from the instructions that the insulating pins come installed in the frog rails. I see nothing that suggest that they go anywhere else. Instructions are at the following link: http://www.lionel.com/media/servicedocuments/70-5165-250.pdf. See the section on installing the switch and the sketch on page 3.
The problem is this: Since both switches have those insulator pins in the same position, and since those positions are pointing directly at each other, one set of pins would have to be pulled, since two different objects can't occupy the same space. Can you see my problem now?
If you think 0-72 switches are complicated, try 027 profile 042 Lionel switches. New and old most act like they are possessed. Run an engine over it and it goes wild switching back and forth creating a derailment. Open one up and see all the wires are white and probably miswired. Tired of it I disabled the electronic features in all of mine and have been buying K-line 42" switches.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
You do need to put insulating pins in both outside rails. This will interrupt the connection between the outside rails of the two tracks; so you then need to restore that connection. You can do this in several ways:
Put a lockon (or use whatever means you prefer) on the disconnected track and run a wire from its outside rails to the transformer's common terminal.
Put a lockon (or use whatever means you prefer) on the disconnected track and run a wire from its outside rails to the other track's outside rails.
Run a wire between the common terminals of the two turnouts. I don't know what turnouts you have, so I can't tell you where those terminals are or whether you have them at all.
Bob Nelson
This is for Lionel O-72 switches. When putting to switches diverging route to diverging route. Remove the steel pin that wants to go in the same rail as a insulated pin. If too steel or two insulated pins are aligned on the same rail remove which ever you like. O-72 switches should have an insulating pin on the two inner rails . I hope this helps if not someone Will be along to help soon.
I see lionelsoni replied right before me. He must have viewed the track plan. What I said above is for the non-derail function to work. If I'm reading into this correctly you will need the insulated pins he is talking about in the outside rails also .
Jason
B&O = Best & Only
Just to be sure there's no misunderstanding, let me say that, when I refer to "outside rails", I'm talking about the rails that the wheels roll on, as opposed to the center rail that the locomotive's pickup rolls on.
Some explanation of how the turnouts work and why the insulating pins are needed: Most of the outside rails of your layout are (or should be) connected together and to the common terminal of your transformer. However, on anti-derailing turnouts like yours and on some accessories, pieces of outside rail, called "control rails", are insulated from the outside rails generally. This is done so that the train's metal wheels act like an electrical switch, making a connection between the control rail that one wheel is on and the outside rail that the other wheel is on, to throw the turnout and prevent a derailment. When the control rail extends to the end of the turnout (some don't), you need an insulating pin there to keep it from being permanently connected to the outside rail of the track that you connect to the turnout, which in this case is another turnout.
Since the control rails of the two turnouts are on opposite sides of the track where they connect, you need an insulating pin on both rails, leaving no way for the "real" outside rails to touch each other. That is why you need to do something extra to get them in touch with each other, like an extra wire around the turnouts.
(I haven't seen the track plan nor the turnouts. But this problem comes up frequently with anti-derailing turnouts. If I'm not mistaken, the early, 1952 1122 turnouts avoided the problem by having the control rails completely within the turnout.)
Bob,
It was the early 1122 turnouts that had the non-derailing feature completely within the turnout. No insulating pins were necessary with these turnouts.
Bruce Baker
You're right. I don't know what made me type "1121". The picture is of course of a pair of early 1122s. I edited my post to correct the number.
OK, unfortunately you guys all know what you're talking about, and I'm marginal at best. I'm adding a copy of the area in question to this post -- just click on the link at the end of this post. Unfortunately it cut my writing off, except for the switch on the left, called Switch # 1. Just call the next three switches from left to right Switches # 2, 3, and 4.
My problem is this from reading "outside rails" -- does that mean that I need an insulating pin on every outside rail on every switch? Do me a favor, just tell me: "On switch number 1, you need pins on all 4 outside rails," etc., please, or whatever you're trying to get through my thick head. Or, if you want, which would be REALLY cool, you could copy this picture, put an X on every spot that needs an insulating pin, and repost it.
I also am not clear on where to put the lockons and which rails to connect them to. Additionally, Switches 2 and 3 are presently fighting to maintain the same direction and will not let me set either of them to a different direction (straight, rather than turning off the main line to the smaller inside loop). The layout's outer loop is presently insulated from the inner loop, so apparently I've done something right. The smaller switches, one of which is also directly connected to Switch # 3, are Lionel 022 switches. Right now I am using the pin in the side of the switch, not track voltage, and have them all connected together to the transformer (a ZW). I will be using two ZWs to power this layout, however, with one mostly dedicated to trains and one dedicated to switches and accessories.
The person who did this layout made it sound as though there was nothing unique about just plugging all these switches together and -- voila! you have a really neat layout, but I think he either assumed the readers were all electricians, apparently.
Here's the section in question. I really have my fingers crossed that you can help me, and I really do appreciate your patience:
http://members.cox.net/captherp/Layout%20072%20switches.jpg
Put insulating pins in both control rails of every turnout. This will include putting insulating pins in both outside rails where turnout 1 connects to turnout 2 and where turnout 3 connects to turnout 4. Here is a picture of an 022 turnout that shows where the control rails are: http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/swt/stc022a.pdf . I have no information about your O72 turnouts; so you will have to find the control rails of the non-diverging path for yourself. They may or may not be the same as the 022s. Maybe someone else on the forum can tell us.
Connect all outside rails other than control rails to a common (U) terminal of the ZW transformer. If the insulating pins result in any track's not getting track voltage, connect the outside rails of the dead track to a common (U) terminal of the ZW transformer.
To isolate blocks of track that you want to power separately, put an insulating pin in the center rail at the block boundaries. Do not run trains from a block powered by one transformer output into a block powered by another transformer output, especially if those outputs are from the same transformer. Instead arrange to switch both blocks to the same transformer output before crossing the boundary.
Do you have a real ZW transformer or the modern "transformer" with the same name?
The lockons will connect to the center rail and one outside rail wherever you put them. The outside rails will connect to each other through the metal ties (of tubular track), so it doesn't matter which side of the track you attach the lockons.
OK, I'll go by this info. Oh, and it's a postwar layout, so I use postwar ZWs, not modern stuff.
Thanks
Tony
Are these your turnouts:
These are 5165 and 5166. If these are what you have, it looks from the picture that the control rails are the short rails that meet in a "V" at the frog.
Those are the ones.
Bob, Lionel 072 switches operate the same as the PW O22 switches.
Mike
Actually, while they operate the same, the insulating pins are in different locations than on the 022 switches.
Are you sure? I sure couldn't see any gap in the long curved rail.
For some reason Lionel put the control rails on O-72 switches in the middle. So with that tid bit of info. The insulated pins go on the inside rails.
It doesn't matter where the control rails are. With switches 1, 2, 3, 4 connected as shown, all the switches should have insulating pins in all 3 rails of the divergent (curved) path. This isolates the inner and outer loops and also provides proper isolation for the control rails.
Then, as Bob Nelson says, you have to separately power the inner and outer loops from the transformer. And you need to make sure that the U terminal of the ZW is connected to the outer rail of both the inner and outer loop. The outer rail is the rail that the wheels are on.
Then there is the issue of running a train from the inner loop to the outer loop (or vise-versa). A train should not cross an insulating pin in the center rail if the two center rails are powered from different transformers or different transformer taps. A discussion of this has been posted by Bob Nelson several times.
Bruce, it's true that, "It doesn't matter where the control rails are" for the parts of the O72 turnouts that he connect to other O72 turnouts. But it does matter for the non-diverging paths through those turnouts, as well as for all the 022 turnouts that he has. That's why I wanted him to understand that every control rail on the layout must have an insulating pin, and why I tried to let him know through those pictures just where all those control rails are. I think we now have a consensus, that the O72 control rails are the short rails that meet at the frog and that the 022 control rails are as shown in the Lionel service manual.
Thanks for reinforcing the warning about crossing block boundaries. His situation is the worst case, where both blocks might be powered from different outputs from the same transformer. This is the case where the circuit breaker provides no protection at all.
I guess I should also mention that, in any case, the power wiring should be no smaller than 14 AWG, since the ZW's circuit breaker is rated at 15 amperes. This is a situation where it wouldn't be a bad idea to install 5, 7, or 10-ampere breakers in series with all the transformer outputs, to protect against accidental connections among them.
I know you guys know what you're talking about, but all the above has done is pretty much make me decide to pay someone to wire the thing. For instance, what HAPPENS if this happens:
"Then there is the issue of running a train from the inner loop to the outer loop (or vise-versa). A train should not cross an insulating pin in the center rail if the two center rails are powered from different transformers or different transformer taps."
What does this mean:
"Thanks for reinforcing the warning about crossing block boundaries. His situation is the worst case, where both blocks might be powered from different outputs from the same transformer. This is the case where the circuit breaker provides no protection at all.
I guess I should also mention that, in any case, the power wiring should be no smaller than 14 AWG, since the ZW's circuit breaker is rated at 15 amperes. This is a situation where it wouldn't be a bad idea to install 5, 7, or 10-ampere breakers in series with all the transformer outputs, to protect against accidental connections among them."
You mean after doing all this I could destroy my transformers, wiring, entire system, and burn down my building? You have to realize that you're not talking to someone who understands all this stuff. I understand what circuit breakers do, but how can you have a situation where a circuit breaker will do nothing? WHAT WILL HAPPEN, and why is this the "worst case"? Are you telling me that if whatever you're talking about happens, that I'll have no indication of it, no circuit breakers will break the circuit, and basically after it happens I should just throw the layout and all the trains on it in the dumpster?
In short, while I appreciate the help, you're talking Greek to me in a lot of this stuff, and I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling that way.
Tony, when my kids were younger, they would demand that we help them with school work that they did not understand but then throw tantrums when our explanations didn't immediately enlighten them. As they have gotten older, they have become much more reasonable, but back then it was no fun to try to help them. I felt a duty to keep trying, which does not extend to helping people with their toy train wiring problems. The old-timers here know that I will keep explaining pretty much forever for those who can patiently and politely question what they do not understand. But, if you want to shoot the messenger, we don't need to go further.
We are trying to help you, without being able to see your layout or your equipment and without knowing which of many details are obvious to you ("I understand what circuit breakers do...") and which are not. That is not as easy as you might imagine. Toy train layouts are not in fact the simplest of electrical systems. I will answer what you have asked in your last post; and then we can see whether we want to continue.
o "What HAPPENS if this happens: 'Then there is the issue of running a train from the inner loop to the outer loop (or vise-versa). A train should not cross an insulating pin in the center rail if the two center rails are powered from different transformers or different transformer taps.'"
If there is any difference between the voltages from the two sources, a fault current flows between the blocks through the locomotive's or lighted cars' pickups. This fault current can be quite large.
o "What does this mean: 'Thanks for reinforcing the warning about crossing block boundaries. His situation is the worst case, where both blocks might be powered from different outputs from the same transformer. This is the case where the circuit breaker provides no protection at all.'"
If the blocks are powered by different transformers, the fault current flows through both transformers' circuit breakers; so one of them should trip. On the other hand, if the blocks are powered by separate outputs from the same (typical Lionel postwar) transformer (like the ZW), the current does not flow through any circuit breaker at all. This is a design flaw in virtually all Lionel postwar transformers, which should have been given individual circuit breakers for the multiple outputs. The fault current can therefore be much higher than the circuit breaker rating and can melt pretty heavy layout wiring and the wiring inside the transformer box.
o '''I guess I should also mention that, in any case, the power wiring should be no smaller than 14 AWG, since the ZW's circuit breaker is rated at 15 amperes. This is a situation where it wouldn't be a bad idea to install 5, 7, or 10-ampere breakers in series with all the transformer outputs, to protect against accidental connections among them.'
You mean after doing all this I could destroy my transformers, wiring, entire system, and burn down my building? You have to realize that you're not talking to someone who understands all this stuff. I understand what circuit breakers do, but how can you have a situation where a circuit breaker will do nothing? WHAT WILL HAPPEN, and why is this the "worst case"? Are you telling me that if whatever you're talking about happens, that I'll have no indication of it, no circuit breakers will break the circuit, and basically after it happens I should just throw the layout and all the trains on it in the dumpster?"
Yes. That is why I recommend supplementing the inadequate circuit breaker in the transformer with breakers on the individual outputs. The ZW is a large transformer that can put out as much current as a residential branch circuit before its circuit breaker trips. Therefore you need to wire your layout with the same wire size that your house needs, to keep from starting a fire. If you do follow the advice of adding circuit breakers, you can reduce the wire size downstream from the transformer to match the circuit breaker ratings. It is unlikely that any one train will draw close to the full 15 amperes that the ZW can supply, even though the total drawn by several trains may approach that value.
I know this layout. It was featured in the November 2004 issue of CTT titled: "High Speed in 6 x 12 feet." It was only a 2 page spread with no info on how to wire it, so yes it will give you fits.
I'm wanting to build this layout in conjunction with another for my grandkids, so I've been taking my time studying what Bob Nelson and other's say concerning wiring and electronics, taking notes,and making my own diagrams over and over to better understand what I need to do. Like you I am not well versed in this, but with time, patience, reading and rereading, research and contemplating, doing some practice wiring and asking more questions, you will get there.
As much fun as I think this layout is, I don't believe it is a layout for the novice as far as wiring.
Seems to me that if I always remember to have the correct rail to the common terminals on the transformer, and have the insulating pins installed as noted, I should be OK. In any case, thank you for your help. No further tantrums will be thrown.
As to the comments at the start of Mr. Nelson's last post, made, it seems, at my expense -- there's an old saying I remember -- something about not expecting to be told how to make a watch when you just want to know what time it is.
Capt, Both Bob Nelson and I are electrical engineers with combined experience approaching 100 years. I suggest you take the time to understand and heed what Bob is telling you. It is extremely well thought out and he has your safety in mind. He has analyzed the potential problems with transformers and layouts at great length. And no, you will not always be OK if you just have the common terminal of the transformer on the outer rail and insulating pins installed correctly. I suggest you protect each output terminal of the transformer with an appropriate circuit breaker, probably 5 amps should be OK. Then, even though you don' t fully understand what you are doing, you should be safe. OK?
I guess this is why I run my trains on separate tracks and have only used my switches to park trains that I don’t run and has no power. However I would like to get more adventurous and was wondering, what book would you recommend for a novice like me to start learning some of the concepts you speak about. From searching the forum it seems the book Wiring Your Train Layout by Peter Riddle would be a good start but I was wondering if you have any other suggestions.
Thanks and keep up the good work
Harold
From what I have understood, Peter Riddle would not be the best reference for layout wiring. I think the best would be to read whatever Bob Nelson (lionelsoni) and Bruce Baker (servoguy) have posted, save those pages and take many notes and practice doing what they recommend. Other's on this forum also have great experience, I just don't remember their names right off.
I don't know of any good books on the subject. I have a pretty low opinion of Riddle's understanding of electricity. You may be able to find some postings of mine with detailed criticism.
Capt.Herp... if any of you have seen the layout in question, I built it, but I am absolutely stuck on where the insulating pins go on the two pairs of 0-72 switches.
The circles in red show where the insulating pins for the non-derailing feature need to be placed. If there is a transition between power districts / blocks at the switches, the blue circles show where the insulating pins are placed for that function. (click image for larger view)
Rob
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