Thanks, Larry.
The armature, itself checks out, plate to plate and plate to shaft, but my rewind job certainly does not look professional. By that I mean the windings rise from the ends toward the center, sort of like a little hill. I may unwind it again and rewind with new wire. For now, though, I'll set it aside and finish repairing a couple other PW locomotives.
swede
It sounds like the armature is bad; probably shorted. Take the armature out and using an ohmmeter on the lowest setting, check the resistance between each of the copper commutator pieces. All 3 readings should be the same, within a few tenths of an ohm. If they are not, the armature is bad. Also check the resistance of each commutator section to the metal shaft of the armature. The readings should all be infinite - an open circuit. If you get a reading, the armature is shorted and needs repair.
A bad armature can be repaired by The Motor Doctor.
Larry
I found a couple very thin shim washers at a specialty hardware store and just placed one on the armature shaft to see if the motor would run better. Before applying power I noticed the armature shaft bearing had almost no vertical movement when the wheels were rotated in reverse. When power was applied, the motor ran in forward but slower than previously and only buzzed in reverse. Also, when running in forward, the armature and brush holders got very hot. This car may well be relegated to the parts bin.
I agree that most of the postwar motors run better and faster in forward.
This particular gang car looks like it has seen a lot of use over the years but it was not abused. The commutator and brushes were suprisingly clean and the plates were pretty smooth. I did give them a going over before reassembling the motor.
I did unwind and rewind the outer field coil today and then wired the motor as it was intended to be. With one end of each field coil hooked up to a slide post, the motor runs fine in forward but when the slide is positioned for reverse, the motor functions just as it did in my testing. Mostly it runs ok, but sometimes it does not reverse (just buzzes) and sometimes it barely runs.
I am going to find a couple more very thin shim washers and see if I can get the motor to consistently operate.
Will update on Monday.
Most postwar motors run better in forward because the gears especially are worn in that direction. Locos that I have had ran visably slower in reverse.
If the armature is shimmed properly and stays properly mated with the gears, the engine should run fine in reverse.
Check to make sure the brushes are making good contact with the commutator segments. Replace them if worn. Clean the commutator sections, the brushes and brushplate with Naphtha to insure good electrical contact. Polish the commutator sections with a Brite-Boy or very fine emery cloth. If the commutator sections are so worn they have grooves in them, it is time to rebuild or replace it.
The symptoms sound like a bad armature, but if it were bad, it would not run at all. The gear may also be excessively worn.
Thanks for responding, Larry.
When I was doing the testing, I had nothing electrically connected to the slide mechanism. I jumpered between one end of the field winding and ground, jumpered between the other end of the field winding and brush #1, attached one transformer lead to ground and the other to brush #2. The motor ran forward each time power was applied. I then reversed the brush leads and the motor ran in reverse, but not consistently. Sometimes it ran fine, but more noisely than in forward. Sometimes it ran slowly and I immediately cut power. Sometimes it simply buzzed and, again, I immediately cut power.
The second field winding is used to run the Gang Car in reverse. It needs to be repaired for the car to run properly as designed.
To get the car to run in reverse with only one field winding, the mechanism would need to be rewired so the slide swaps the motor brush connections.
I have serviced several Lionel 50 gang cars in the past that exhibited the behavior described in the original post. As the result of thorough cleaning, lubricating replacement of a missing armature shaft bearing, and armature shaft shimming, all have been restored to proper operation. The one I am attempting to get operating now, Version C, came to me as a basket case, disassembled, and in a plastic bag. After carefully reviewing the contents of the bag, it was missing the bottom grounding spring 50-24, the ends of one field winding were broken off with nothing left to affix new leads to, and, in addition to the thrust bearing and two thrust washers on the armature shaft, there was a shim washer with a hole substantially larger than the shaft diameter (did not think it was original to the car). The armature shaft bearing was in place.
After a thorough cleaning, the worm gear and drive wheels were checked for wear and axle bushing slop. All was good and after lubing, the motor was reassembled for testing with the one good field winding. Before applying test power, I rotated the drive wheels checking for vertical movement of the armature bearing. The bearing was at its top position without rotating the wheels and the wheels were hard to turn especially in reverse. With power properly applied for forward and then in reverse, the motor attempted to run but simply buzzed.
I removed the shim washer from the armature shaft and reran the testing. There was a fair amount of vertical movement of the armature bearing when the drive wheels were manually turned in reverse. With test power properly applied, the motor ran good in forward. With the test leads changed for reverse, there was a momentary reverse and then buzzing.
I then placed a thin shim washer with a proper sized hole on the armature shaft and retested the motor. When manually turning the drive wheels in reverse, the armature shaft bearing moves vertically no more than 1/32". When tested with power, the motor runs fine in forward. When tested in reverse, the motor sometimes operates like it should, sometimes it turns slowly and sometimes it simply buzzes.
Am I on the right track trying to find a proper sized shim or do you think something else needs to be checked? I do not want to tackle correcting the second field until I know the motor will run properly.
Thank you for responding.
goto http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=488
click on second diagram
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
I have same problem- light cleaning all especially contacts and ligh toil helped - However I do not know where the singular "Bearing" mentioned is suspose to be??? I do see the small shaft thrust "several bearings-bearing plate". Is that what folks are refering to?? do olson and the train tender carry those?
Got it running right, now Larry. Thanks.
The next thing to do is check the motor to see that it will physically run in both directions.
Remove the contact plate assembly from the frame. Connect a wire from one lug of the contact plate to ground and power up the unit, and it should run. Disconnect the wire from the lug of the contact plate and connect it to the other lug and the unit should run in the opposite direction.
If the unit runs in both directions now, you have a problem with the slide plate grounding spring not making good contact with the contact plate. If it does not run, either you have a bad motor winding, or a mechanical issue.
When the drive wheels are turned manually in both directions the armature turns freely with no wobble and it doesn't appear to jump up and down when viewed from the bottom. The drive wheels appear to spin true, but I will take the unit apart again and check for wheel bearing wear as you have described. The sibling who had possession of this set before turning it over to me, probably because it was perceived as having become junk, claims that the section gang car was running fine the last time it was used. I would love to get everything working again.
Can you manually turn the armature in both directions and get the wheels to turn in both directions? Make sure the armature does not have too much vertical play, just enough to be free to turn. The armature should also spin true under power, and not wobble, indicating worn motor bearings.
With the armature out, make sure the drive wheels spin true by hand, and that the axle bearings are not worn. There should be no forward and back, or up and down play in the bearings.
A wheel puller is needed to properly remove the wheels, and a wheel press with wheel cups is necessary to properly re-install them.
The motor does attempt to run in reverse. It is interesting that the service manual doesn't show the ball bearing. The armature shaft gear does not appear to be worn, nor does the axle drive gear appear to be worn. Of course, my assessment has to be suspect, considering my lack of experience. I can manually spin the drive wheels in both directions, but the motor does not. I will disassemble the unit again and clean it up better. How are the wheels removed from the axles? Is a miniature gear puller necessary?
Welcome to the forum!
First thing to do is to dis-assemble the motor and clean the copper commutator segments on the armature, brushes, springs, brushplate, wheels and roller pickup with hardware store naphtha. Clean out any old grease on the wormwheel and lower armature shaft using the naphtha to soften it if it is hardened. Oil the axle bearings, put some grease on the worm wheel, and reassemble the motor.
Does the motor attempt to turn in the opposite direction, or is it completely dead? See here and here for the service manual pages of the Gang Car. You may need to service the mechanism to insure the contact spring is making contact on both lugs of the contact plate.There may also be a broken wire from one field winding to the contact plate.
If the motor trys to run in the opposite direction but the wheels do not turn freely, there may be worn axle bearings, a worn worm wheel, or some of the armature shim/thrust washers may be missing.
I have a #50 Section Gang Car that only runs forward. I cannot find or see an Armature Shaft Hole in the brush plate. I do have the ball bearing. What am I missing?
TrainLary and all who have given useful info.,
Thank you all for your helpful info.
All is needed, when various problems arise.
Ralph
cwburfle,
Thank you for the helpful info.
nickaix Could it be that the outside edge of one of the axle bearings be worn, due to the worm gear attempting to shove the axle to one side when running, to the point that the wheel binds against the frame? Similar to the problem on postwar Berks?
Could it be that the outside edge of one of the axle bearings be worn, due to the worm gear attempting to shove the axle to one side when running, to the point that the wheel binds against the frame? Similar to the problem on postwar Berks?
Absolutely!I didn't want to bring this up in earlier responses because I didn't see the need to discuss more serious problems before eliminating the minor ones. Sometimes, when I run into this I pull the wheel and put one or two 671M-23 washers on the axle, and then reinstall the wheel. You can get away with this if there isn't too much play (wiggling) in the axle. If there is a lot of wiggle, the fix will still work, but replacing the bearings will result in a much better running piece. Some folks say they have used either horseshoe washers or c-clips to fix a rubbing wheel without removing it. I have never tried this.
This may be the missing ball bearing part and part #50-102, from Olsen's Parts Lists:
http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/OLSNPIX/0030.pdf
http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/partsbybin/bin028/page.html
Turn the armature's 'Brush-Plate Cover' #50-59, upside-down, place the ball bearing in the armature drive shaft hole of the cover and hold the ball bearing in place with light grease, so's when the cover is turned right side-up, to reassemble the unit, the grease should prevent the ball bearing from dropping out and getting lost.
Keep a magnet and a magnifying glass handy!!!!!
In my experience, the axle bearings are likely to need replacing before the worm wheel. Unfortunately, the wheels need to be removed to replace either the axle bearings or the worm wheel. Hopefully the original poster's problem will be addressed by installing the ball bearing in the brush plate.
There are a number of things that cause poor performance of the Gang cars. A worn worm wheel on the drive axle can cause poor performance in one direction. A worn armature gear can also cause poor performance. To properly service these units and insure good performance, you must completely dis-assemble the car down to the bare frame. Clean all old grease and oil, and lightly oil the axle bearings, making sure the drive axle bearings are not worn. Clean the reversing slide assembly, grounding spring, contact spring, and contact plate. Make sure all electrical contact points on these parts are clean and not pitted. Reassemble the reversing slide, lubricating the frame where it slides on. Make sure the grounding spring makes good, positive contact, but not excessive pressure on the slide. Likewise with the contact spring and contact plate. Push the slide back and forth, insuring ease of movement, and that the spring contacts are making good contact. Check both sets of field windings with an ohmmeter to insure that you don't have one open winding. Reassemble the motor, lightly greasing the bearings and washers. Some units had the extra thrust ball bearing in the brushplate. It can do no harm to install one if it is missing. It will insure even wear of the gears. Wire it up, and give it a go. It should run smoothly in both directions. If it does not run in one direction, and the motor hums and tries to turn, chances are the gears are worn. If the motor does not try to turn, you probably have a bad field winding if all other electrical connections are good.
Exploded view here: http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/opcar%5Cacc50p2.pdf
By the way, NEVER oil the contact roller(s) on any item. The oil attracts dirt and causes bad contact and sparking, along with heat to the roller and rivet.
Slide moves fine, but bearing is missing. Seems like it is binding a little in forward, and binding completely in reverse, just buzzes. This makes sense I think because when you manually move the wheels in reverse, the armature is popping up (no ball bearing to prevent this?) and causing the worm gear to bind. Seems reasonable. Still doesn't explain the problem in forward.
bfskinner Try this link. I don't think it shows a ball-bearing, but there may have been variations and/or repairs.
Try this link. I don't think it shows a ball-bearing, but there may have been variations and/or repairs.
The ball bearing is shown on page 2 in the original Lionel service station manual, in the little box showing the 1955 brushplate. For some reason, the page shown in Olsen's scan does not include this information. I guess there must be variations in the service manual. (The pages were dated and revised from time to time)
As far as the Gang car goes; there are variations in their construction, but as far as I know, all variations use the ball bearing. The only possible exception would be the early version with the two piece horn centered on the brushplate. The ball bearing goes into the armature shaft hole in the brushplate.
Please reread my much earlier post above. As I wrote then, a missing ball bearing and the reversing slide binding up are the two most common problems. If the slide is moving all the way back and forth, and the ball bearing is there, then there are more advanced issues to look at.
http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=488
edited to provide better link.
Does this thrust bearing sit up in the hole where the armature shaft sits in the brush plate? My gang car struggles in forward with the transformer turned way up and a lot of sparking from the track pickup. I get nothing at all in reverse. I just rebuilt the whole thing with new armature, brushes & springs, and thorough cleaning and re-lube. It's wired properly and I just can't figure out why it barely runs. I've rebuilt a lot of post war engines successfully, but this thing is throwing me for a loop.
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