You could be right Lee. The Doyle book I mentioned is a 2004 printing, so it's entirely possible new info has been uncovered since then. In fact, under 1690 type 1 it says something like "and the roofs" which I assume was supposed to say "and the brown roofs", but the editors didn't catch it. Anyhoo, the Ives versions had brown roofs as do the 1690 and 1691 I have in my collection. One of them even has the original blue window trim recessed above the windows where most cars have those areas punched.
Becky
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
According to the info in Greenberg's Pocket price guide, these cars were sold from 1933 to 1940. Info taken from the 2010 edition of Greenberg's Pocket price guide, page 58, under pre war.
Penny could be correct, as there are can be mistakes in current price guides as to the date and manufacturer of an item. Most people writing these guides today were not alive when those trains were made. I have noticed that the Greenberg's guide don't always list every variation from pre war times and don't list most items sold by Target that have the Lionel name.
Lee F.
They're Ives transition cars. According to David Doyle's Standard Catalog of Lionel Trains 1900-1942, they were sold first under the Ives name in 1931 and 1932. They were added to the Lionel line in 1933. The first cars were red with cream window trim and brown roofs. Beginning in 1936 the roofs became the same red as the car bodies. Unfortunately I don't have any specific info on sets, so I'll leave that to thge next expert to chime in on.
when did Lionel begin to sell the Lionel Junior tinplate passenger trains (#1690 pullman and 1691 observation) pulled by the 1681 engine in red or black? I had a set as a child, and I wonder how old it really was.
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