Observation and experimentation. At the power connectors of both Lionel packs have a small 18W stamp printed next to them, and the small Marx pack also has "25W output" printed on the top. I assumed that was the maximum wattage output on the track end, it certainly makes sense given the large size but lower wattage Lionels will barely move anything while the tiny but higher output Marx moves everything. As it is given my tight space constraints I am considering going with Marx packs, also the auto-reversing units Marx used are playing havoc with the Lionel packs built in directional control, the green light flickers constantly at slow speeds and will often snap the engine into reverse for no reason, especially at turnouts, I dont have this issue with the Marx pack. I've read where old Marx and new Lionel electronic controls are often at odds with each other.
Have fun with your trains
How did you determine that the transformers are putting out "18 watts"? Since watts equals volts times amps I'm curious how you measured. As far as your 999 roll over, that's why the transformers have "throttles". That old Marx takes a lot less voltage than most Lionels.
Just curious about your measurement techniques.
I always like to err on the side of too much than "just enough" when it comes to transformers
Virginian Railroad
Been doing some experimenting with my power packs, looks like I got two lemons and an orange. The two lemons being the Lionel packs I got, both only put out 18W (if that) on the track end, they will not or only barely move some of my engines, they are the lemons. The orange turns out to be the old really small Marx pack that the seller thru in as filler, its 25W output runs everything I put on the track, even provides too much power as the header my 999 took when it took a corner too fast, luckly the only damage was a broken light bulb...I need 25W or higher output on the track end, now I know what to look for
Thanks for the neads up on the CW80, If I go that route I will likely check my LHS where they should have one in stock, I'll look for that G designation, not buying another off Ebay.
Well if you do decide to go with a postwar transformer, I suggest this website for rebuilt transformers that are in like new condition.
http://www.lioneltransformer.com/home
The owner is Davis Lyons. A VERY nice guy who knows his stuff about rebuilding and repairing postwar transformers. My choice, instead of buying two transformers would be to buy one ZW. There are plenty of them available on E-Bay now that Christmas is over, but figure on sending it in for a rebuild unless it has already been rebuilt. A ZW gives you the power to expand as well as power accessories.
You're right. I mistakenly read the numbers for the 1032, which is described on the same page. As you say, 90, 60, and 5.
Bob Nelson
Bob Nelson, I agree with your basic message, but will quibble a bit with your specifications:
The postwar Lionel 1033 was rated at 90 watts input and 60 watts output continuously or 5 amperes. As you say, one will produce about 16 volts output if the power grid is having a good day.
I admit it's a distinction without much of a difference.
My source: The Complete Service Manual for Lionel Trains by K-line, first edition, page 633.
Note: if the original poster wants both whistle/horn and bell buttons, he might consider a Lionel CW-80 (as long as it has a "G" in the Made in China Date*), puts out 80 watts, and has a relatively small footprint; or the MTH Z-1000 which puts out 100 watts, is generally a little less expensive than the CW-80, and seems to have a good reputation.
* Due to early production problems I cannot recommend any CW-80 that does not carry the "G" suffix, no matter how cheaply you can get one. Many of the CW-80's that can be found on eBAY and elsewhere, even though advertised as "New in the box" are actually the early, unacceptable models. In other words, "new" doesn't necessarily indicate the revised or "G" version.
Sorry if some of this is repetitive of some comments posted above. At least we are mostly in agreement.
Beware of early CW-80 production. They have a botched output design and a poor reputation for reliability. You can read (much) more through the forum's search function.
Speaking of the CW-80 by Lionel, I saw a new one at the hobby shop in Lantana FL today for $125.00.
Lee F.
If you do buy a voltmeter (probably the most useful "measuring gear"), you need to know that an ordinary voltmeter cannot accurately measure the voltage out of some modern "transformers", like the CW-80. I have in the past posted correction tables for voltage measurements of this particular model. I would stick to analog meters for such measurements, since it is hard to know just how digital ones respond to the non-sinusoidal outputs of "transformers" like that.
lionelsoni You need to be concerned with the transformer's output voltage, not just the power rating. For example, you could have a 1000-watt transformer; but, if it put out only 5 volts, your train is not going to go anywhere, even though it can supply 200 amperes at that voltage. Marx transformers typically put out 13 volts at most. American Flyer transformers typically do 15 volts. The Lionel 1033 and its cousins go up to 16 volts. The ZW reaches 21 volts; and the Z goes to 25 volts. What your trains require, I don't know. If you can borrow a higher-voltage transformer (Z, V, ZW), you can find out what your needs are. The power rating tells you, for older transformers, how much power they take in at the line voltage (probably assumed to be 110 or 115 volts). The power available at the output is probably about 70 or 80 percent of that. Newer transformers are rated by the power that they can put out. The power out of the transformer is the voltage, which is what you adjust with the speed control, multiplied by the current that your train draws. For example, if your trains will go fast enough for you at 16 volts, you could use a 1033, which is rated at 75 watts. According to Lionel, your train can draw about 50 watts continuously from this transformer, two-thirds its power rating. This corresponds to about 3 amperes at 16 volts, which is a reasonable amount for a typical train to draw.
You need to be concerned with the transformer's output voltage, not just the power rating. For example, you could have a 1000-watt transformer; but, if it put out only 5 volts, your train is not going to go anywhere, even though it can supply 200 amperes at that voltage.
Marx transformers typically put out 13 volts at most. American Flyer transformers typically do 15 volts. The Lionel 1033 and its cousins go up to 16 volts. The ZW reaches 21 volts; and the Z goes to 25 volts. What your trains require, I don't know. If you can borrow a higher-voltage transformer (Z, V, ZW), you can find out what your needs are.
The power rating tells you, for older transformers, how much power they take in at the line voltage (probably assumed to be 110 or 115 volts). The power available at the output is probably about 70 or 80 percent of that. Newer transformers are rated by the power that they can put out. The power out of the transformer is the voltage, which is what you adjust with the speed control, multiplied by the current that your train draws. For example, if your trains will go fast enough for you at 16 volts, you could use a 1033, which is rated at 75 watts. According to Lionel, your train can draw about 50 watts continuously from this transformer, two-thirds its power rating. This corresponds to about 3 amperes at 16 volts, which is a reasonable amount for a typical train to draw.
Thanks for the info Bob, I'm probably going to have to educate myself on what these things run on, I am an electrical Luddite, so this may take some effort and get some electrical measuring gear as some of this older stuff I'm getting may require serious reworking and knowing what the power output requirements are for each engine would be helpfull
sir james I My thoughts: stop playing to cheap. Get a modern transformer like a Lionel CW-80 or MTH Z1000, you get something new and it has whistle and bell controls if you add a new engine. Use the old ones for accessaries.
My thoughts: stop playing to cheap. Get a modern transformer like a Lionel CW-80 or MTH Z1000, you get something new and it has whistle and bell controls if you add a new engine. Use the old ones for accessaries.
I wasn't planning on playing it cheap
I put a bid on those not really expecting to win, so I low-balled it, when I did I was really surprised! That being said I am looking to go the CW80 route, I'll keep the 30W pack in storage for now. The 40W works fine for what I want it to run and will be used on a small loop on the new layout. BTW the Lionel 40W does have bell and whistle buttons on them.
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
Live and learn they say, OK the power packs I picked up in the above post, only the 40W pack is of any use, It works fine, but these old trains suck a lot of power to move, my 30W pack will not move anything, which is a surprise considering that most packs that came with the Marx sets were only 30W, which also means my Marx 25W pack is also nothing but a neat looking paperweight. The way I'm setting up the new layout, I'm going to need another 40W minimum pack, looks like I will have to fork out a few bucks for the Lionel 80W pack, forgive me for not using the model #'s I'm simply not that familiar yet with alot of this stuff yet.
OK this happened alot faster than I expected, I but in a bid on a guy selling a Lot of powerpacks, I got these 2 Lionel packs, one 30W one 40W, plus and old 25W Marx pack and 2 small HO DC packs all for, less than $50, on top of that it was overnight mailed to me! I plan to use the 40W on the larger loop, the 30W in the inner loop and keep the elevated loop wind-up only.
BTW This is why I needed to look for a powerpack
My own transformers consist of two Lionel KWs, both from the Fifties. No malfunctions of any kind, ever. I also have the Lionel 1033 that came with my first train set in 1951, and for a long time, it was my only transformer; it's very versatile. In addition, I've got a couple of smaller transformers that I picked up somewhere, and they still do duty powering lights. One of them is a Lionel 1028 that came with my mother's #1700 set in the Thirties.
The only maintenance I've had to do on any of them was to replace the cord on the 1028.
For all-around use on a small layout, the 1033 would be hard to beat. Whatever you get, don't throw your 1025 away. Those small transformers can still do a fine job running your lights and accessories.
This thread is all very interesting to myself.At present I am running my trains with a 1025 45 watt Lionel transformer that came with a set that I received in 1967.It works well but I have been thinking about getting something a little more powerful.I was using an old Marx transformer to operate switches until I changed the layout and took out the switches.
Another great little PW transformer is the LW, I really like the looks of those, at 125 watts, maybe a little more than you are looking for, but more watts is definitely better than not enough.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Thanks everyone, I know now what to keep an eye out for, I'll update when I get one.
I second Rob's motion on the 1033 and 1044.
Thanks for the welcome. I need a newer, by at least one year when they put whistle buttons on them, transformer, and i'll bw looking for one this summer. And that #224 Prairie was my 4th Christmas present. Of course, it was several years before my father and my uncles allowed me to play with it.
Too bad Glasstream is gone. Those older bass boats were great and I wish i could replace my 1987 boat.
Glasstream15 I am using a 1946 Type R100 tranformer to run my small, 4X6, layout...
I am using a 1946 Type R100 tranformer to run my small, 4X6, layout...
Welcome to the forum! I love Glasstream boats.
The Type R is a great transformer. That's why I recommend it's successor, the RW, for those that have horns & whistles.
Rob
11th StreetThose 55+ yo starter transformers were underpowered back then, so you can assume that they have had their internals .
That would be an inaccurate assumption without any basis-in-fact.
There are hundreds of thousands of modern postwar transformers in perfect operating condition, original & refurbished. Most from 1948-on are still working or easily serviceable.
For your needs, the 1044 & 1033 units would work just fine, or a couple of RW's even if you want a little more art-deco flair. The whole layout could be run on a single KW too.
If you are considering modern transformers, two newer CW's(with "G" in the mfg. date code) would be economical choices(~$55 each on the street) and will give you up to 10 amps continuous output(about the same as the continuous duty rating of a postwar ZW).
I am using a 1946 Type R100 tranformer to run my small, 4X6, layout. Only one track, but the Transformer has 2 variable and several fixed outputs. I did replace the power cord this summer, but other than that I don't have any problems with it.
I run a #224 and a #2035 Lionel, a #999 Marx and a plastic shell Lionel that i don't remember the number. Only bad thing about the R is, no whistle button. Have to use a 167 whistle controller. I may get a later 1940s or early 50s transformer with a whistle button this summer.
Hope this helps.
See that fire in that photo you have attached? That should be your concern. Those 55+ yo starter transformers were underpowered back then, so you can assume that they have had their internals . If you find them cheap, then they are cheap for good reason. The main transformer coils, rollers, circuit breakers, insulation, the main power cord are all suspect. Now ask your self: how many 55 yo high current electrical devices would you be willing to bring home & operate? Without a fire extinguisher nearby?
Since I run only a overhauled PW-ZW for light duty & Z4000s otherwise, I will leave + recommendations to others ...
I am looking to add power to my "Really Old School Layout" but the layout is very small ( two small loops in 3'-6 x 4'-0") which means using todays larger size power packs may not be do-able as the ones I was shown are very large in footprint. I wanted to place them in the left over cornerspaces. I was thinking since my layout is very small, of using 2 older smaller packs that use to come with the older starter sets. I was warned at a LHS do not use older packs as they were not as good electronicly and would be a fire hazard, so I want to ask here what you all think, are older smaller power packs OK or should I rethink how I'm going to add power to my tiny layout.
I am a real novice with AC power, having done DC stuff up till now.
If I go old, how old is too old before they really do become iffy?
If I go new, what do you recommend?
Is there a minimum wattage I should try to stick to? I was looking at some 40W packs on Evilbay being pretty affordable
Remember the layout is only 3'x4' and I'll only be running one older Marx or Lionel engine at a time on each loop.
Thanks
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