Many people collect and/or restore various things such as vehicles, furniture, toy trains,etc. In addition to toy trains, I also enjoy the antique tractor hobby. I have two tractors built in 1948 and one from 1958. My brother collects motorcycles. Recently my brother and I had a discussion(argument actually) in regards to what constitutes a "correct" restoration. My brother feels that an item should be returned to the exact condition it was in when it left the factory. This appears to be the conventional thinking for most collector items including toy trains. I however, am starting to re-think this wisdom. Using my tractors as an example, each one has been modified through the years to better suit the needs of the owners. The changes are very minor. Repositioning a gauge for better viewing, adding a step to make it easier to climb onto, etc. This has me wondering what is more "correct"....the way it left the factory or the way the farmer actually used the tractor for sixty plus years. Personally I chose to leave these changes. I fixed and repainted the tractors but I felt the changes were part of their history.
I am now wondering what everyone thinks when confronted with restoring toy trains. Perhaps an additional car was added to a set. Maybe a different transformer was substituted. The theoretical question is.....is it preferable to restore a train to new-in-box condition or would it be more appropriate for the train to remain the way it was when a child(or adult) played with it years ago? I have a few postwar trains that I cleaned up and placed in my display case . They were in nice shape to begin with so I did not have to do an actual restoration. When a restoration is indeed necessary, I am curious as to what everyone considers a "correct" restoration. Obviously this question has no right or wrong answers. I am just interested in everyone's point of view.
Karl
Karl,
I fit under both points of view here. If I am doing a restoration, I do everything as close to original specs as possible. However, sometimes I will modify an original piece piece that I am not 100% satisfied with in stock form. I replaced the lamp type smoke unit in a Lionel 2020 with a fan driven unit, installed a larger motor in a Flyer 332AC Northern, transplanted a smoking chasis into a Flyer 350 Royal Blue, and recently converted a Flyer 589 Mystic Station into a 755 Talking Station to name a few modifications.
I too have restored many pieces and try and get close to original most of the time. There are restorations that would give the appearance of a rare item. On one of my crane cars I blued the roof on the crane to look like a very rare version. Other possibilities are the different color combinations on some of the 764 type station. So long as one does not do it to decieve for a profit, all is OK.
Jim
I guess as many people answer this question, that's how many different opinions you'll get. For me, externally, it will depend on the piece, internally I'll always try to upgrade in some way for better performance and longevity.
For myself it has a lot to do with the rarity of the item but then more importantly, what is the long term intent? Do I want to preserve it with the idea in mind to resell it? Do I want to enjoy it as I see fit and tailor it to my desires? Perhaps this is what separates a collector from an operator, but then again I have some items that the wear and tear seems to suit them, what other areas of collecting would call "a patina of age" I think for me it's a item by item choice..I have a Marx Grand Central Station that I wouldnt modify if my life were threatened, and then on the other hand, I have wind-up's and six inch tin ( basket cases) that I have repainted, re-powered etc. It's such a personal valuation that for me goes beyond a monetary investment..I am not in it for eventually "cashing it in"" as it just not my "thing" to make my hobby interest a Fort Knox..but then thats not to infer a criticism who see it as a investment as well..it's all up to intent and rarity for me..value seems to be in the yes of the beholder.
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
I have restored a few trains and bought a few restored trains, it gives you the feel of what it would have been like to have one when it was new.
It is often forgotten that this is (or was) a "Classic Toy Train" magazine. A few years back, the Train Collectors Association revised the toy train grading standard to conform with the Antique Dealer's rating scale.
Original trains are rated from C-10 to C-1 :
C-10 Mint-Brand New * C-9 Factory New * C-8 Like New- complete-all original * C-7 Excellent- all original * C-6 Very Good- may have minor parts replaced * C-5 Good- signs of wear * C-4 Fair * C-3 Poor * C-2 Restoration Required * C-1 Junk
Restored/ Refinished Trains:
R-5 Professional Grade- exact match of color, gloss, wiring, parts * R-4 Very Good- noticeable color or finish differences * R-3 Good- can show wear * R-2 Fair- Non-professional, non-authentic wiring or color * R-1 Poor
The complete Grading Standards can be downloaded from the TCA Web page (Left side of home page) -- Pre-War 87 pages or Post-War 112 pages long.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
I would rather buy a professional restoration of pre-war tinplate than buy a new "reproduction"...mainly because some kid did not get the repro for Christmas back in the 1920s-30s. Because of the bright colors, I like to see these trains "as new", and cannot afford to buy them in this origional condition.
My postwar steam is OK with "playwear", but I team up the engines ( 681, 224, 736, and 675) with new MTH RailKing passenger cars full of people that I have painted. Go figure?
I guess if we want to get technical about it, a true "restoration" can't be done by any of us. It could only be done by the original manufacturer using the original materials. Anything we the consumers, collectors, etc. do to an item after it leaves the factory is in truth an "after-market modification." So the question might be better asked as which is the better mod? Returning it to an appearance as close as possible to that which an item had the moment it left the factory, or an appearance that's more in line with that specific item's history? In the second case, you keep the extra parts and part relocations that have been done by the various owners over the years and concentrate only on fixing obvious defects like paint scratches and bent metal. Either way you're both right and wrong, it just depends on who's passing judgement.
I have a #8 off Ebay that someone had previously "restored". The wiring was all new and the wheels were replaced with M.E.W.'s. Other than those 2 items, I don't know what specific restoration had been done by the previous owner. What I do know is the individual in question allowed a battery to leak acid all over the locomotive. Metal got etched, paint got eaten and those shiny new wheels got anihilated. So was I buying a restored piece? Technically yes, But when the restorer, or an owner who had the restoration accomplished by someone else, doesn't take care of the piece it isn't exactly what most of us would call "in restored condition" any longer.
I bought the engine cheap, repaired the motor, replaced the wheels and stripped and repainted the shell in a 2-tone blue paint scheme of my own design. The body is a purplish periwinkle blue and the roof is such a deep midnight blue it's almost black. I replaced the headlights since they were also cracked by the acid and decided to install a pair of 408 style brass pantographs in place of the hinky dinky pantograph the #8's came with. Why? Because I live in Cleveland and the Cleveland Union Terminal P1a boxcab electrics are a local legend. I also repainted 2 #35's, a 36 and an Ives combine in the same scheme. Paint can be removed and since I never set forth with the intent to decieve, no harm no foul. All 5 pieces are now a custom painted set .
Becky
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
In my opinion if you are an toy train operator, you should redo it to what you want, as it is yours to run. If you are a collector, clean it and shelf it. Restoration diminishes the value to many collectors, however values seem to drop in my case whenever I want to sell or trade a piece.
Toy trains were made to operate, not be on display.
"Toy trains were made to operate, not be on display."
Here, here. I daresay if it weren't for all those "collectors" out there (and I deem a collector as someone who's not an operator,) the prices for those cool old Lionel pieces I drool over would be a lot more within reach.
Careful guys, this is the kind of Hot Topic even the ladies on The View wouldn't touch. Everybody has their opinion and everybody's just as adamant that they're as right as the guy on the other side is.
In my opinion, all of us should buy what we want for the reasons that seem best to us. If that means you're buying a 2011 MIB Lionel item hoping it will increase in value I sincerely wish you luck. But I also understand that the Collectibles market is very risky/fickle and you may not reap the benefits you hope to sew. I've only been at this game actively for about 18 years and I too have seen book values far below the prices I originally paid. Case in point, the "State-of-the-art" Santa Fe 2-6-4 with smoke and air-whistle which I paid 300 dollars for in 1993 has a book value of 90 in one guide today. Was it a good investment?
Irrelevant. The Santa Fe paint has been covered-up with Nickel Plate markings and custom made accoutrements. I bought it because I believe the post-war 2036 style engines look good and are good candidates for customization. However, the majority of my customizing efforts are easily removable. I glue-on my styrene parts and I use paper labels to give engines a new moniker. I print the Nickel Plate Road lettering on my deskjet and glue them on with water based glue sticks. It's only when I change the paint that I truly "destroy" an item. But most often I only repaint when rust is threatening the piece's integrity.
Late in 2009 I acquired a 514 Boxcar that had been crudely repainted by a previous owner. The yellow body had been over-sprayed with a gloss red and the brown roof had become 45n green. Even though the car was rust free, the bad paint job lowered it's worth to 25 dollars. It was missing one door and both brakewheels but I got those from OTTP. I spent the summer stripping the car inside and out and polished all the wheels, journals, stanchions, etc. and primed and painted it back to it's original brown and yellow scheme. However I didn't get matched paint, I used Krylon Sunrise Yellow and Espresso Brown. Why? #1 because they were cheap. But also because I would hope that somewhere down the line after I'm dead and gone some knowledgable collector will check the color against a TCA chart and realize it's not in original condition.
Kids who didn't take care of their trains are what I live for. I love rust. Rust means that an item is more within my reach. I don't have a train budget, or a job. If I hadn't learned to work with junkers I wouldn't have anything at all. I know that some people hate what I do, and I can live with that. I also glue Plasticville because I like my kits to stay together btw.
In the end I look at it this way. Every piece I repaint and/or customize raises the value and rarity levels of all other pieces of that model number. So what's to complain about? Let's play trains!
I consider myself both an operator and collector. I think most of us would probably fall into this category. After all, if we have more equipment than we can fit on our layouts, the pieces that are not currently being run are simply a "collection."
I also think that in rare cases a modified piece might end up valued higher than a stock mint-in box piece depending on who owned and modified the item. I know I would cherish a locomotive or car from the late John Allen's HO scale railroad. The same holds true for a piece once used by Frank Ellison. I find it is easier to modify something if I have grand illusions that it will be worth more some day just because I owned and modified the piece to fit my toy train layout. Of course for that to happen, both me and my layout would need to become world famous. I would probably have to have passed away as well....on second thought, anonymity does have it's benefits.
YES, I Collect:
YES, I Operate: And in "G Gauge" you can see the trains without your bi-focals.
The handful of restorations I have done, I have tried to get the piece as close to the original as possible, to a point. The way I figure, if you can't see it, it's not there, right?
So I will rewire things with whatever wire I have on hand, replace pill smoke units with liquid, etc. I don't see the point of the TCA's R-5 original style wiring rating. Actually, I recently restored a 252--and you would have to be crazy to put the same insulation back in that thing as came out of it! If the piece looks and operates like the original, that's a successful restoration to my mind.
Oddly enough, I've restored Lionel steamers to as close to original as possible, but with American Flyer, I've done a couple things just to fit what I want to run. Strange.
Not really naturally gifted in this area, I've really surprised myself a couple times with how good a piece came out. For the other couple a little off the mark, I kind of figure people want to know it's a restoration anyway...for the next owner.
In any case, the piece has to be far gone for me to consider restoring it, otherwise I leave it.
Ya know, I just thought of something. Probably 90% of the pre-war pieces I've stripped have been because somebody spray painted them red. Seriously, was there some kind of sale on red paint?
In the 1950's my grandparents installed red siding on their farm house. Ironically, the barn was gray. Perhaps red was a popular color at that time. I happen to like the color red so I'm OK with that.
I definitely enjoyed hearing everyone's point of view. I would imagine many historical organizations wrestle with this same issue when confronted with a restoration project. This probably happens often with items such as structures and prototype railroad equipment which were subject to many changes through the years, and could also have very long life spans.
I agree. I have restored in both directions. I figure the product is now restored and it can be restored again. It is your train do it you way.
I am one of those folks with no interest in restored trains. I'd rather have a scratched up piece than one that has been restorred.
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