Ah, thank you! It's been awhile since I watched the tape.
Becky
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
Penny Trains Is that the same Paul Ambrose that did the music for TM's "A Lionel Christmas"? Becky
Is that the same Paul Ambrose that did the music for TM's "A Lionel Christmas"?
No, that would be Phil Ambrose.
Rob
Monsieur FYI all, I checked Alibris yesterday and the current going prices for the three books in the set "Standard Catalog of Lionel Trains" was between $5.00 and $7.00 each for mint copies. Be sure to check the sidebar , that's where the prewar volume showed up. They sort by cost and some copies were up at $74,00 for 2006 printing. The prices are all over the place. I got lucky at $2.99 but five or six bucks a copy isn't bad. Patrick
FYI all,
I checked Alibris yesterday and the current going prices for the three books in the set "Standard Catalog of Lionel Trains" was between $5.00 and $7.00 each for mint copies. Be sure to check the sidebar , that's where the prewar volume showed up. They sort by cost and some copies were up at $74,00 for 2006 printing. The prices are all over the place. I got lucky at $2.99 but five or six bucks a copy isn't bad.
Patrick
I didn't think it was bad either, so I went and bought the post-war and modern era (70 to 2000) volumes! 6 for the postwar in "minor shelfware" condition and 6.60 for the modern in mint. Not bad at all! By buying both from the same seller I saved on shipping too! Again, thank's for the heads up!
The James Gang set arrived today! One surprise, there was half a tank in the box! Not a tank car, a tank! lol The set arrived around 3:30pm and I've spent the last couple of hours taking things apart for a thorough cleaning. The flatcar was a bit of a dissappointment in that it has a cracked frame, but that's OK. None of the horses and only half of the fencing was there so I turned it into a "swayback" cannon car. The shack walls, floor and under trusses were all there but all but one of the door and window inserts are missing. Again, no big loss, it was the engine I was after. The outlaw car is in excellent condition. The combo car has a broken railing. There were 6 telephone poles in various conditions but no bases. And no, the cowboys were not in the box. But there was a black Lego block!
Ua Mau Ke Ea O Ka Aina I Ka Pono
Firesteel BTW Becky, was it your birthday or was the shopping spree for someone else's birthday? If it was yours, Happy Birthday!
BTW Becky, was it your birthday or was the shopping spree for someone else's birthday? If it was yours, Happy Birthday!
Thank you! Yes it was yesterday actually, but I bought the cars on Thursday! I still have a 50 dollar GC for that store so it's not over yet! I don't expect the spree to end till the 27th when there's a show at the local UAW! ; ) lol!
Big_Boy_4005 Becky, don't forget that James Gang engine is DC only. In 1980 Lionel made all of their "traditional" (basic beginner) sets with DC can motors. The advantages were cost and maintenance. If you try to run it on AC it will just sit and twitch. While the DC can motor eventually took over as the standard, the electronic E-unit makes it possible to use AC on the rails. The conversion from AC to DC is done on the board. Your James Gang engine does not have such a board.
Becky, don't forget that James Gang engine is DC only. In 1980 Lionel made all of their "traditional" (basic beginner) sets with DC can motors. The advantages were cost and maintenance. If you try to run it on AC it will just sit and twitch.
While the DC can motor eventually took over as the standard, the electronic E-unit makes it possible to use AC on the rails. The conversion from AC to DC is done on the board. Your James Gang engine does not have such a board.
Yeah, I had my suspicions that it might be. But it's OK, I also have the blue 8008 Chessie 4-4-2 so I'm set up to switch between my type R and a Life-like DC pack on my little oval. (I run on O31 and S in my bedroom on a small 4 by 6) However if the Lionel transformer that was pictured with the lot is in good working order I'll probably switch out the Life-like.
Thanks for the confirmation!
Monsieur Hi Becky I bought the "Standard Catalog Of Lionel Trains" series of books from Alibris ...For $2.99 each.
Hi Becky
I bought the "Standard Catalog Of Lionel Trains" series of books from Alibris ...For $2.99 each.
$2.99!!! Holy crap I'm gonna check that out! Thanks for the info!!!!!
Seayakbill Happy Birthday Becky. 30 bucks for the James gang set is a great buy. Did the set still have the cowboy figures which often are lost ?
Happy Birthday Becky. 30 bucks for the James gang set is a great buy. Did the set still have the cowboy figures which often are lost ?
Thank you!
Yeah I just couldn't pass it up! From the one not too clear photo I can see that the sand dome and whistle from the engine, the fences and at least one set of weels from the flat car are missing. Other than the train and transformer, only the instruction sheet was pictured. However the seller described "Dissassembled pieces of a fort or something" as also being in the box, so who knows. Plus he didn't describe the "Box" so it could be the actual set box for all I know. Everything else looks to be in good shape, I can even see a shine on the boiler. If the estimated shipping is correct, I should have it by the end of the week then I'll know what parts to order. Even if I have to spend 30 bucks on replacement parts it's still a good buy in my book. Especially since it's a set I ogled every time we went to Kiddie City and always wanted but never got!
I have both of the Krause/Doyle books mentioned in Bob Nelson's post. I have to admit, I was unaware of the copyright infringement controversy involving these books. As with most things in life, the more I learn about something, I realize how little I really know. Obviously I will still use them for reference, but it is good to know when copyright and trademark issues take place. It also lends a certain understanding as to why some items suddenly disappear from the marketplace.
Karl
I like the TM books but as with the Greenberg I only have the std. gauge version. I also have Peter Riddle's "America's Standard Gauge Electric Trains" and volumes 3,4 and 5 of O'brien's "Collecting Toy Trains" but not much else on post-war and MPC.
Since I'm likely to be buying good books on those subjects in the immediate future, which is best?
I'm back!
Follow the progress:
http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/displayForumTopic/content/12129987972340381/page/1
I bought the "Standard Catalog Of Lionel Trains" series of books from Alibris at:
http://www.alibris.com
For $2.99 each. The copies were mint condition and shipping was about four dollars each. At the time I hadn't heard of the lawsuit. I'm on a limited budget, retired, so I find this book seller a great source of needed reference material. Alibris has a large amount of railroad and model railroad books in their online catalog. Alibris is a central source for book stores across the country.
BTW, I was on a birthday shopping spree when I bought the car. And last night I got lucky again and won a James Gang set on Ebay for 30 bucks! I guess this is my year for good stuff!
Bill T.
I would not buy another book by Mr. Doyle.
After what happened neither would I, but I bought the books before the lawsuit happened and they are still a good reference source no matter who wrote them.
I would not buy another book by Mr. Doyle. This news article explains:
David Doyle and Paul V. Ambrose Settle Lawsuit
Pittsburgh, PA, December 31, 2007.
The lawsuit filed by Paul V. Ambrose in late June against Krause Publications and David Doyle alleging that the Standard Catalog of Lionel Train Sets, 1945-1969 infringed upon the copyrights in earlier works written by Mr. Ambrose has been settled by Mr. Ambrose and Mr. Doyle. The Publisher, Krause Publications, Inc., earlier had settled with Mr. Ambrose.
Mr. Doyle has issued the following statement regarding this settlement: "In my preparation of The Standard Catalog of Lionel Train Sets, 1945-1969 and The Collector Guide to Lionel Trains, 1945-1969 I made a mistake. Portions of books previously written by Mr. Paul V. Ambrose on Lionel Post-War Toy Trains appeared in my books. Even more regrettably, Mr. Ambrose's contributions over the past decades to the hobby of collecting postwar Lionel trains was not acknowledged in my books. I have apologized to Mr. Ambrose for my actions and have assigned him the copyrights to these, and other, books of mine as part of our settlement. Mr. Ambrose has graciously accepted my apology. I would also like to apologize to the collecting community.
Other terms of the settlement were not disclosed.
Bob Nelson
Thank you all! I'm printing all of this great info so I won't lose it! I really need to get more books, I have Doyle's 1900-42 Std. Catalog but I need the post-war version too! I'm gonna put that one on my shopping list! And more MPC books! For now I'll stick the info I just printed into the book I have, O'Brien's V5.
I guess I looked at the hopper the "european way" and only counted the bays on one side too! Kinda like the way they count locomotive wheels as a 2-3-2 instead of a 4-6-4! lol Or maybe I should have said it only had 2 pairs of chutes on the bottom. : ) Rob, you're absolutely correct, that's my car sans model number!
I also picked up a boxed 6257 caboose that same day, but the only thing interresting about that one is that it has 2 couplers. ; ) But I do seem to have a habit of getting my hands on oddball items without trying. I have a set of Santa Fe Alco's (A & B) without the usual black and yellow striping. Like everythng else I bought them because they were a good price, not because I thought there was anything abnormal about them. But I've never found a set like them and they make me wonder too. I probably acquired them 15 years ago and only recently have I thought about how much nicer they would look if they had those stripes. That's the way it goes, I guess I'll go look for better books!
Anyhoo, thanks again to everyone who helped me unravel this mystery!
Thanks Rob for straightening that out!
I was looking at the side of the hopper and not from the top!
So yes they made 4 bay hoppers and 8 bay hoppers!
Penny Trains That's a lot of good info! Thanks! But my hopper is a 2-bay, not a 4-bay. What about the 6076, was that a 2-bay? Becky
That's a lot of good info! Thanks!
But my hopper is a 2-bay, not a 4-bay. What about the 6076, was that a 2-bay?
No problem. But I guarantee it's a 4 bay hopper.
butleryard I don't remember seeing any 4 bay short style hoppers. Most of the 4 bay hoppers were #63**, 64**, 65**, 66**, 67** numbers.
I don't remember seeing any 4 bay short style hoppers. Most of the 4 bay hoppers were #63**, 64**, 65**, 66**, 67** numbers.
A picture is worth... well anyway, here is a 4 bay hopper:
2 bays per side.
Here is an 8 bay hopper:
4 bays per side.
Look inside - it's obvious from the top.
I don't think Lionel made any two-bay hoppers. I'm not even sure I can visualize a prototype.
Check Doyle's book, or anyone's. The intro on hoppers should describe 4-bay vs 8 bay, & no mention of any "2 bay" hoppers.
Rob.
Becky, your hopper is a Lionel #6176 type IX. According to David Doyle's book. "Black body without new date, built date, Lionel or number on the car. This car was listed in the Lionel Service manual as 6476-100 due to its coupler configuration." Most of these cars were equipped with AAR trucks with one fixed and one operating coupler. Price range is $10 - $25.
Rob is right that it is a 6176 except 2 bay. I don't remember seeing any 4 bay short style hoppers. Most of the 4 bay hoppers were #63**, 64**, 65**, 66**, 67** numbers.
As for the #237 engine and set, the closet set I can find is an uncatalogued set from 1965 and was sold through J.C.Penneys. The set # was 3726 / 19437. It included a 237 engine, 242T tender, the (6402) flatcar with cable reels, 6142 gondola and cannisters, a 6014 white Frisco boxcar and a 6059 caboose.
Penny Trains ...OK, the so called "Thumbtack coupler" is the type with the round disk that followed the flat "flying shoe" design of the late pre, and early post-war period... Becky
...OK, the so called "Thumbtack coupler" is the type with the round disk that followed the flat "flying shoe" design of the late pre, and early post-war period...
The "flying shoe" coil couplers were discontinued after 1945, and were followed by the sheet metal mounted shoe-activated coil couplers. Starting in 1948, flap activated magnetic couplers were phased in, and about 10 years later were replaced by disc-operated AAR("Timken") plastic trucks.
On AAR trucks, the coupler "disk"(armature - part number 566-14) is a sintered iron casting suspended/pressed on a short vertical shaft(armature pin - part number 566-60) from a flat spring spring steel bar(spring assembly - part number 566-58). These were never called "thumbtack" couplers.
Thumbtack couplers were an MPC(post 1970) innovation. MPC switched to using thumbtacks very early on after briefly using small rectangular bars on a pin as armatures for their all plastic assembly(early 9200 series cars(and others) were built this way).
Your black LV hopper with minimal markings, one disc-operated AAR("Timken") plastic truck(part number 566-50) & one dummy AAR truck(part number 568-50), is a 6176 4-bay hopper and is typical of common 1964-1969 production.
Yes I thought that subject line would garner some attention! Comedy always gets the best results! Not that I'm apposed to dating, but that's a different subject for a different forum! lol
OK, the so called "Thumbtack coupler" is the type with the round disk that followed the flat "flying shoe" design of the late pre, and early post-war period. However a true "thumbtack" is an MPC device with the original metal post-war spring shaft replaced by plastic. The metal disc for uncoupling was glued to the plastic shaft and truly resembled a thumbtack. In fact, actual flat head thumbtacks are often used as a replacement part on MPC cars. After all, all you need is a piece of iron for the magnet to grab hold of. The name seems to have warped back in time to apply to all uncouplers with a round disk. This car however has the original metal shaft style post-war coupler so I highly doubt it's a true 1948 car. And since it's not plastic, it's not MPC.
The best book I have on hand concerning post-war is O'Brien's Collecting Toy Trains V5. Unfortunately the descriptions are much more rudimentary in this book than those in the Greenberg guides, but I only have the pre-war Greenberg book. For these hoppers, the O'Brien book doesn't even make a differentiation between 2 and 4 bay, so I have to rely on Ebay and stores like Trainz to see pictures of what the book only vaguely describes.
As to the question of being from the 1960's I do have some potential evidence to lend creedence to that idea. My first train set came with a white Frisco plug-door boxcar which has one fixed and one thumbtack coupler. However that car is dated 1957 while none of the other cars have any date at all. As I'm sure we all know, using old stock to make up the cheap starter sets was a common thing at Lionel. My set contains a 237 scout w/tender which I'm told was made between 64 and 66, the 6014 white Frisco box, a 6142 green gon, a 6402 grey unnumbered flat with orange reels and a 6059 M & St.L caboose. There was also a 1965 catalog in the box when it came to my hands in 1972(?), but this set configuration isn't in the 65 catalog. My half sister bought the train for my dad as sort of a joke gift and I inherited it one Christmas morning around 72 or 73. So I'm not entirely sure when it was purchased. But if it is from 64 to 66, which makes sense because of the 237 loco, I can certainly see Lionel having vintage boxcar bodies on hand and put the 1957 6014 on the newer chassie. It makes sense since this set included an uncoupler among the tracks that made a figure-8 and Lionel would have wanted consistency for all components. (BTW, does anybody know the set number? Much to my chagrin the OB is long gone which is too bad because I really liked the picture of the trains and the mountains and all.)
Anyhoo, back to the hopper. Since the lettering was heat-stamped, I can see by running my fingers over the letters on the rest of the car and feeling the depressions, that there's no trace of them ever having been where the number and built date should be. The dirt patterns on the car are also consistent on both sides so it doesn't look like the numbers were removed. The trucks are plastic, but I don't know the truck types to tell you for sure what kind they are. They have a sort-of closed "V" then 2 springs and another "V" and says TIMKEN on the roller bearing caps. The rivets holding the trucks in place have rust equivelent to that on the axles and other metal parts so I don't think they're replacements. The rivets are the thick circular top design, not the rounded type. The non-op coupler is the hollow top design typical of most "scout" cars. The op coupler is all plastic except for the thumbtack and shaft.
So if we can date it to the 60's, does that make it a 6076 from 1963? I thought the 6076 hoppers were all 4 bay where my car has only 2? Or could it be some refugee 6458 shell on 1960's trucks? Does the embossed lettering which says "U.S. OF AMERICA" make a difference? I have no info on when Lionel changed it to U.S.A., or did they?
This is fun, I'm enjoying the detective work!
Thumb tack coupler is the round silver metal piece on the bottom of the coupler that is pulled down by a magnetic uncoupling track. Looks like a thumbtack hence its name.
I'm thinking that Lionel started putting only one operating coupler on cars in the very early 60's, so that would be the oldest it could be.
Always nice to find a lady train lover! Maybe the lady will explain to this clueless man what a thumb tack coupler is.
What type of trucks? AAR, arch-bar, or Symington-Wayne? When you say "thumbtack" coupler, this indicates 1970(MPC) or later manufacture.
The title alone will certainly guarantee we will all click on this thread
Is it possible that this car was modified by a previous owner? I have read that some people do like the factory error pieces. Either way it is unique, and for ten dollars you really can't go wrong.
So I was at a local store yesterday and I picked up an unboxed black Lehigh Valley hopper with no number and no built by date. I assume it's a 6456 short hopper because it has one dummy coupler and one thumbtack, but the absence of the number stamping in the "LEY" bays of the car is a bit of a mystery. The white LV lettering is heat stamped. It's embossed on the bottom "MADE IN THE U.S. OF AMERICA" on one side and "BY THE LIONEL CORPORATION NEW YORK" on the other.
So assuming it's a factory error car, does that really increase the value? It's in what I would call good condition: nothing missing, nothing broken, just dirty. I paid 10 bucks for it. But is it worth more? I'm not looking to sell, I'm just curious.
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