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wind-up locomotives

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Posted by lionelsoni on Friday, November 5, 2010 8:05 PM

Buddy L trains were made in both 2-inch and 3 1/4-inch gauges.  The latter were the ones meant for outdoors use.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by Penny Trains on Friday, November 5, 2010 6:42 PM

baberuth73

Pardon my ignorance but what is gauge 2? Loved the videos.

I was doing a bit of reading last night and saw that the Buddy L trains were gauge 2 if that gives anyone a size comparison.

Becky

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Posted by baberuth73 on Friday, November 5, 2010 3:41 PM

I appreciate all who took the time to educate me on the subject of clock-work locomotives. The videos were beautiful and skillfully done. 

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Posted by Penny Trains on Thursday, November 4, 2010 7:17 PM

vsmith

Thats a cool video, but why do I still just HATE Fastrack??? AngryLaugh

I know what you mean, those squared chromey fastrack rails don't really do it for me either.

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Posted by vsmith on Thursday, November 4, 2010 6:27 PM

Thats a cool video, but why do I still just HATE Fastrack??? AngryLaugh

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Posted by wallyworld on Thursday, November 4, 2010 3:59 PM

Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.

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Posted by vsmith on Thursday, November 4, 2010 12:07 PM

Dave, thats the layout I used as the model for my "Really Old School Layout" Its surprisingly alot of fun for such a compact size, especially when using the wind ups, but you have to watch you side clearences or which way you run so not to snag a windup key on an accessory, a couple of my keys dont come out easily so its just easier to leave them in.

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Posted by vsmith on Thursday, November 4, 2010 12:01 PM

by the 1920's there were 4 common Gauges 0 (1-1/4"), 1 (1-/3/4"), 2 (2"), and 3 (2-1/2")

Gauge 2 pretty much disappeared after WW2 along the Gauge 3, both were on the decline before but the explosion of O and HO after the war did them in, Gauge 3 managed to hold on to a measured degree of life after the war along with Gauge 1 due to live steam being popular in those gauges, but remained both remained relatively fringe gauges. Gauge 1 resurged as a popular electric guage with the emergence of LGB in the 70's, and was rebranded as G Gauge  and a larger scale. Gauge 3 has experienced a small resurgence in popularity of late in the garden railroad world in Britain. But Gauge 2 still remains in the realm of the collector.

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Posted by lionelsoni on Thursday, November 4, 2010 9:49 AM

Two inches.  It is the gauge that Lionel "standard" gauge is 1/8 inch bigger than, supposedly because Lionel misunderstood that Maerklin's specification of 2 1/8 inches was to the centers of the rails, not the inside edge.

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Posted by baberuth73 on Wednesday, November 3, 2010 8:26 PM

Pardon my ignorance but what is gauge 2? Loved the videos.

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Posted by dsmith on Wednesday, November 3, 2010 3:44 PM

Here is a YouTube video that shows a Marx Commodore Vanderbilt wind  up.  Lots of great camera work and at the end of the video is a great close up of the operating mechanism.

watch?v=rWaobyVHCqU

  David from Dearborn  

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Posted by Train-O on Wednesday, November 3, 2010 5:30 AM

Dave,

That is a beautiful layout, with the scenery and which allows the train to loop back en-route.
That clockwork engine is pretty powerful and neat.

By the way.  Are you wearing a Woolrich Original Red and Black checkered 'Buffalo' shirt?

Take care,

Ralph

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Posted by Penny Trains on Tuesday, November 2, 2010 6:36 PM

cnw1995

What a fun thread! I've never seen a Gauge 2 in action, nor a speed-governed Marx motor. I love the wind-up Marx motors.  It was valuable to see how long you could 'crank' one. I presume they need a special key.

Me neither.  The only gauge 2 engine of any kind I've ever run across in person was a homebuilt live steamer in a little museum at Cedar Point of all places! 

Aaaahhh the keys!  The keys!  They're all different and you pay through the nose to find a replacement!  However I've found that modern Schylling keys work on post-war Hornby and a jewler's screwdriver will often wind a square-key Marx!  lol

Becky

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Posted by cnw1995 on Tuesday, November 2, 2010 8:31 AM

What a fun thread! I've never seen a Gauge 2 in action, nor a speed-governed Marx motor. I love the wind-up Marx motors.  It was valuable to see how long you could 'crank' one. I presume they need a special key.

Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.

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Posted by wallyworld on Tuesday, November 2, 2010 7:33 AM

The locomotive engine house in the video is a work of art..the world of UK lithographed accessories never dawned on me..speaking of revelations

Check this out. Egads !

A whistling and speed governed Marx wind up motor..I never knew there was such a thing.

watch?v=lRHBadcH0CE&feature=related:550:0]

Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.

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Posted by vsmith on Monday, November 1, 2010 10:32 PM

watch?v=di8buDR8vrw

Here is the video of some Hornby clockwork trains, I LOVE this layout,  its Gauge 2! Hows that for rareties.

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Posted by baberuth73 on Monday, November 1, 2010 7:53 PM

Thoroughly enjoyed the video- had no idea a wind-up could pull that many cars. Sure would like to see some of the British CW engines in action. I'm trying to envision how a governor would work on a CW but I'm coming up empty. Thanks,again, for the responses.

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Posted by Penny Trains on Monday, November 1, 2010 7:20 PM

dsmith

I don't know a a lot about wind up engines, but the Marx Commodore Vanderbilt is probably the most common and easy to find.  Marx tains have a reputation of being basic but very reliable.  The most important thing to look for on a wind up is the drive spring, make sure it is not rusted or broken.  You should be able to see the spring coiled up between the drive wheels if you look at the bottom of the enigne.  However on some engines there might be a metal housing that encloses the bottom of the engine and you won't be able to see the state of the spring.  I am not aware of any company that still makes a wind up enigne that will run on a track.

I have both a  Marx Commodore Vandrbilt wind up and electric.  Both engines have been very reliable and the shells are the same for both. Here is a video of both enignes pulling 6" four wheel Marx freight cars on my layout.  The electric version is first, followed by the wind up at the end.  The wind up runs quite fast and I would recommend banking the curves.

'); // --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ph4YNVsHLE

 

Christmas layouts are the best!  Unfortunately I can't do streaming video with dial-up but the still frame looks cool!  I like the gingerbread house!  Mmmmm...gingerbread!

I can think of two clockwork makers of recent years but I can't say off the top of my head whether either has anything in production this year.  The first is Schylling.  The second is a Chinese firm (can't find the boxes to tell you the name) that makes "reproductions" (and I use that term loosely) of Paya.  I have 2 of their trolleys but neither was designed to run on rails.  However they did make a funky electric outline loco, a small baggage tractor and a euro style steamer that did have flanged wheels.  I see all of those on the bay almost every time I search.

You also reminded me of another good tip.  Many metal shell CW engines don't have anything in the cab to block the view of the motor.  While it doesn't give you a view of the total spring, you can at least see whether there's a problem with the end of the spring.  Often there's a slot through the center of the spring that rides on a retainer, and if not cared for the thin edges will rust out.  While it's easy enough to drill out a new slot, you do have to sacrifice an inch or more of spring length to do it.

Becky

PS the clockwork set at the top of my want list is the Marx Mercury.

Trains, trains, wonderful trains.  The more you get, the more you toot!  Big Smile

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Posted by vsmith on Monday, November 1, 2010 9:34 AM

baberuth73

Good to hear from you,  vsmith. Your recent project is my inspiration for this post. I've been wondering how your layout is coming along and look forward to a progress report and maybe some more photos. I have been checking loco availability on ebay and there seems to be more competition for the few available wind-up locos than I thought. Haven't checked other possible sources but based on past experience the closer the holiday season gets, the harder it is to win bids on ebay.

Thanks, I do to post an update on the layout, just slowly been collecting accessories lately, gate arms, sheds, signs. In fact I do have to post a question regarding them. I've put new train purchases on hold until after xmas, unless I find something too good to pass up. Still looking for a wind up Marx Diesel set and a couple passenger cars.

As for speed governers, I do beleive that the high end British pre-war clockworks included these, Based on my research, the Brits raised clockwork to an artform, and they did it outdoors to boot! and in gauges O, 1, 2 and 3. Most engines came with winding charts, so many winds gave so many feet of travel, so they would calculate distances between stations, wind them up and let them go, It must have been quite something to let the train go have it slowley roll around the layout and coast to a stop precisly infront of its intended station. Some trains had stop levers on the bottom with a mechanism  that could be placed on the tracks at stations so when a train rolled up it tripped the stop and bring the train to a stop. All this went kaput after the war when electric trains really took over.

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Posted by wallyworld on Monday, November 1, 2010 9:27 AM

Thanks for the video as I really enjoyed it, which made me think of a similar Christmas layout with the Marx and Hafner trains. I see you have a Mr Machine which I also managed to find..what a great idea, all toys of Christmas past! 

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Posted by dsmith on Monday, November 1, 2010 8:52 AM

I don't know a a lot about wind up engines, but the Marx Commodore Vanderbilt is probably the most common and easy to find.  Marx tains have a reputation of being basic but very reliable.  The most important thing to look for on a wind up is the drive spring, make sure it is not rusted or broken.  You should be able to see the spring coiled up between the drive wheels if you look at the bottom of the enigne.  However on some engines there might be a metal housing that encloses the bottom of the engine and you won't be able to see the state of the spring.  I am not aware of any company that still makes a wind up enigne that will run on a track.

I have both a  Marx Commodore Vandrbilt wind up and electric.  Both engines have been very reliable and the shells are the same for both. Here is a video of both enignes pulling 6" four wheel Marx freight cars on my layout.  The electric version is first, followed by the wind up at the end.  The wind up runs quite fast and I would recommend banking the curves.

watch?v=9ph4YNVsHLEhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ph4YNVsHLE

 

  David from Dearborn  

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Posted by Penny Trains on Sunday, October 31, 2010 7:22 PM

I've never heard of the governor, that intrigues me too!  Since Meccano also made (still does) construction sets very similar to Erector and Structo it's very possible that the governor was made by them.  Meccano was progressive, they had clockwork, electric and live steam engines to power their construction sets.  Original Hornby O was Meccano but the newer Hornby Series O was made by Hatchette in France, so they might be another possibility.  Strangely enough, Hornby has brought back the Basset Lowke (lock) line but not their own brand in tinplate O.  They continue to release only OO under the Hornby name.  I also have a set of pre-war Hornby passenger cars (3 Aurelia's and a Marjorie) that are suspiciously similar to the smaller Ives and Flyer cars btw.

Springs can be changed but they're tricky.  Just about everybody who ever made a clockwork motor seems to have had their own ideas.  On the inside end of the coil I've seen welds, rivets and simple bends around the key shaft while on the outer end they can be slotted, bent or notched to the spring retainer.  At the very least, you need to be able to open and close motor housings that were never designed to be user serviced and are often welded shut.  It's also a good idea to photograph or diagram clockwork motors before you try to take them apart so you can get all the reduction gears back in the right places.

Since they can often be found at reasonable prices, (especially the Marx motors since they were made in almost unchanged form into the 70's) it's usually easier just to switch out the whole unit rather than replacing a weak spring with a stronger one.

My little German engine needs a stronger spring badly, but I would like to talk to a clockmaker before I mess with it.  The whole unit is just too fragile and I'd be afraid of installing the wrong kind of spring steel and having it break and smash through the super thin loco shell.  But the nice thing about that motor is that it has an open frame held together by nuts and bolts so access is easy.

As far as finding them goes, look in antique and thrift stores and at garage sales and flea markets, sometimes you get lucky!  A 25 cent clockwork engine picked up at a garage sale when you don't need it may come in handy down the road so I grab em whenever I see em!

Becky

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Posted by wallyworld on Sunday, October 31, 2010 11:47 AM

Much to my ever lasting regret I did not save an article that I think was published in the pre-Kalmbach "Garden Railway" magazine, which had a fascinating series of articles at one point on pretty awe inspiring sophistication from the U.K on using wind up trains in the garden, which was intriguing as I have one that, although now weed grown, lends itself to reinvention in this way. Well, one article made mention of a late innovation over there ( it may have been Hornby) of a speed governor which I have been trying off and on to relocate. One avenue I looked at but never followed up on was the separate sale "Mechano (?) spring mechanism to see if it was adaptable. My experience is with Hafner more than Marx and the spring mechanisms are repairable but it is a pain...as far as a universal design in Marx..I don't know, the Hafner ones are so basic they are adaptable. 

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Posted by baberuth73 on Saturday, October 30, 2010 9:49 PM

Thanks for your response, Becky. A couple of quick questions, but bear in mind I have never seen the  internals of one of these things. Regarding the two Marx units, are the mechanisms identical? Does it seem possible/feasible to tinker with it to improve performance ? Other than ebay, where would you recommend I look for one of these? Swap meets and train shows do not exist in my area.

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Posted by Penny Trains on Saturday, October 30, 2010 8:11 PM

I have 2 Marx engines, 1 Hafner, 1 Hornby and 1 unmarked German set.  (Also the modern Schylling Rail Zeppelin and Mickey Mouse handcar, but I won't count them here.)  The 2 Marx motors are the strongest, hands down.  I have a Commodore Vanderbilt and a simple 0-4-0 steamer, both of which I restored from scrappers with damaged springs.  The Hornby set, a post-war 0-4-0 with tender in like-new condition, would be second.  Then the Hafner 1010 GS4 Daylight style streamliner which was in poor condition when I got it.  At the bottom of the barrel is the German set.  This unknown 0-4-0 with tender can barely get itself around an O31 RealTrax oval, but to be fair it was the most heavily damaged engine I ever tried to restore.  And due to extensive rust the spring broke several times.  So it may have been strong when it was new but until I can identify it I just can't say.

Last year I custom restored a CW Marx set for the young son of one of my cousins.  It was an 0-4-0 with a wedge tender.  With a boxcar, tank car, caboose and a flatcar with a tootsietoy diecast racecar behind the tender the engine runs at a much more realistic speed over the figure 8 I provided.  I gave them restored Lionel O27 track because I knew they were using O27 at Christmas for the father's childhood trains.

But the best track for clockwork trains is banked curve track.  Just about every major manufacturer made it at one time or another but the Marx track seems to be the most common on Ebay.  With the higher outside rail on the curves your uber speedy clockwork engines will be less likely to leave the table.  You can make banked track yourself of course by simply shimming up the outer rail with some cardstock rectangles between the rails and the ties.  But what I like to do is add more cars to keep my engines in check., then I pull them off one by one (usually without stopping them!) as the train gets slower and slower.  Running clockwork is a VERY hands-on experience and switching around engines and cars forces you to "get the fun out of it" as Ward Kimball might say!

Becky

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Posted by baberuth73 on Saturday, October 30, 2010 2:55 PM

Good to hear from you,  vsmith. Your recent project is my inspiration for this post. I've been wondering how your layout is coming along and look forward to a progress report and maybe some more photos. I have been checking loco availability on ebay and there seems to be more competition for the few available wind-up locos than I thought. Haven't checked other possible sources but based on past experience the closer the holiday season gets, the harder it is to win bids on ebay.

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Posted by vsmith on Saturday, October 30, 2010 11:51 AM

I so far have 3 winders, two Marx, M-10000 and a Com. Vanderbilt, and a Hafner M-10000. all go fast, thats inevitable. of the 3, the Hafners goes the longest, next the Marx M-10000, then the Vandie which has had the most use.

As to which is the best, Marx has some strong mechanisms but from what I can determine alot of it depends on how much use the trains have had over the decades, If its fairly new it should still be strong, unless it was stored with the spring fully or partially wound for many years, which would cause the spring to lose some strenth. So its kind of a crap shot, you could buy a strong winner or get a sprung out loser, depends.

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Posted by Joe Hohmann on Saturday, October 30, 2010 10:12 AM

I have a very old Joy Line (pre-MARX, I think) set. It, as well as most wind-ups, go like "a bat out of H", so they may not be the best thing for layout running. I have a restored Lionel pre-war "O" set that I paid less than $200. for. Something like that may fit your plans better.

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wind-up locomotives
Posted by baberuth73 on Friday, October 29, 2010 8:41 PM

A recent thread has piqued my interest in using a wind-up (clock work) locomotive on a retro style layout. I've never owned or operated one of these so I need to know what company made the most reliable mechanism. What do I need to look for before purchasing one? Are these mechanisms still being manufactured? Any light you can shed on this topic will be greatly appreciated.

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