Electricity has always been problematic; Even though, it does many functions and serves many purposes. Not only does its molecular polarity provide energy, it also conducts Radio Frequencies. Those of you, who run Transformer controlled Locos, pride yourselves as not having “Electronic Melt-downs” – Which is a great thing. There are the occasional voltage spikes that melt wires and burn light bulbs though.
Electronic cards are much more sensitive to the power source it receives, due to the fact that they function on much lower voltages (Due to heat and space requirements). Clean power is much more critical to these cards, but it’s almost impossible to attain – unless we install Sine-wave filters in our home’s power supply. Prime example is the water that comes out of our faucets. Radio frequencies abound our homes and we pay little attention to them (Telephones, Microwaves, Televisions, Ect.). They also have an impact on the train’s operation.
Realism does come at a price. Reliability is much more expensive to achieve. The train manufacturers can not afford to implement these technologies, if we are not willing to share the burden of cost. Most of you guys are into the “Old Technology”, not because of its simplicity – but because of COST (3 T/C Locos for the price of 1 Legacy Loco).
Model Railroading to me, is creating “Realism”. We use our imagination to “Live” the fantasy. The Sounds; the autonomy of being able to run several trains at the same time on the same track, is a part of what makes the experience real. To me, pre-electronics is like being “Deaf-Mute” *. There is no communication in that experience.
Juan.
P.S. I may have opened a bag of worms – but come one, come all.
· Not a derogatory comment.
Juan2L To me, pre-electronics is like being “Deaf-Mute” *. There is no communication in that experience.
Earl
Juan2L Realism does come at a price. Reliability is much more expensive to achieve. The train manufacturers can not afford to implement these technologies, if we are not willing to share the burden of cost. Most of you guys are into the “Old Technology”, not because of its simplicity – but because of COST (3 T/C Locos for the price of 1 Legacy Loco).
As long as it is you sharing the burden of the cost and not me, then fine.
Will you re-buy another of the same exact loco in 5-10 years when re-issued and having more realism.
You may have to. I wonder at what point you are happy. Not meant as a derogatory comment.
Well, it's subjectivity at best with no consensus yardstick. I have MTH Proto 1 engines that still run just fine. I think the "classic" in classic toy trains seems to be extended to post modern electronics..so, is Proto 1 now a classic? The whole issue that lurks..some free floating anxiety ( that other technologies have affirmed) is the pace of obsolescence and long term durability in the life cycle of what is a toy. I wish I had a dollar for every post that was akin to "my engine just beeps and won't run." Yet the old E units can be just as cantankerous. My two cents is a question. How imaginative are we? I mean we don't have little engineers waving back at us, or blow down vapor from the cylinders..it's sort of the old you dont miss what you dont have..and then when you have it available..what is it worth to you in cash dollars? Personally I like noisy old engines, air whistles, wind ups, old tin..and can do without ( omigod) even sound, but ...thats because I can relive my youth..there are as many reasons we are into what we buy, as there are product. Another admittedly personal take is ..another question, who defines classic? I dont consider "new" to be classic..may be in the 22nd century they will be.but they are fun as long as you have the deeper pockets, a willingness to "program" have higher electrical standards for layouts..etc. I have a quadraphonic stereo I would love to purchase records for..but dont get me started on that. Affordability is in the eye of the beholder. . and balancing the checkbook when my cell phone bills from my teenager come due.
The other issue that cost weighs in one is..a marriage and your spouse..if one is married, then where is the line between self indulgence and the gutter repairs left hanging? It is also about relationships..I could no more talk my wife into purchasing a $1.2000 engine than I could walk on the moon. There are guys who sneak their purchases into the house. What does that say? I think this is much more complicated than your post suggests.
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
I would say that Juan and I are looking for different things. For him, realism is the most important thing. For me, it is not. I like a degree of realism, but I also want my trains to be "toys", which means a certain degree of simplicity. If I had to choose, simplicity would trump realism more often than not. This also applies to running the trains. TMCC is nice, but it is hard to beat the immediacy of transformer control: Push lever, train moves. No engine ID, even. That's feel-good simplicity, at least from my point of view. I do admit that it does not allow for as much realism, but that just doesn't bug me much b/c of my personal priorities in the hobby.
I think everyone's priorities are a little different: my brother actively looks for engines with less applied detail, because he hates having to worry about breaking something when he picks it up!
Williams offers a lifetime, return to factory service for its products, what about the other majors? Do they want us to buy foreword so we can stock ahead for future gift giving? Then they better stop hiding behind their 1 yr warranties when their product turns out to be DOA on next year's Christmas Day. Are they opening up a new authorized service center for every one that shuts down? Do manufacturers wish to have their products treated like family heirlooms? Want to have their $1000+ products have a service life beyond ! yr? Have they changed their commitments to keep fragile circuit boards in stock, and for how long? And how much longer will the hobby press ignore these issues? Why isn't warranty information listed with every product review? Simply put: the reliability & quality control issues are bad for business and bad for consumers, and are a major difference between the product being sold today and the Classic Toy Trains of the Post World War ll era. Josh Lionel Cowen didn't build his company that way. Nor should we as devotees of toy trains allow the current companies to be run any differently.!
11th Street
You are certainly, if anything, a brave soul. At one time I was much more heavily invested in garden railroading, and I made the fatal error of making some comments on the quality of a certain manufacturer's product. I was attacked by brand loyalists with the response being generally that I should be thankful for this company's products and to well, keep my opinions to myself. This is after I had spent a considerable amount of money on a product that was unreliable, and prone to well, to put it simply, sub par engineering and "bugs"..I asked the question if the other products like televisions or whatnot with a similar price point became unusable, or difficult to get service on..would they have the same reaction? Dead silence. Planned obsolescence with new "improved " post compatibility with previous products is a positive.note, but my own sense of this is look at how far these electronic additions have come in a relatively short time span, and I think it is a matter of time before the base technology will more likely be prone to change. In other words, using video recording as a example, we moved from a analog tape media to digital . Digital technology based on the rails themselves being signal carriers reminds me of the induction telephones introduced by the PRR through the rails..only to be superseded by less complex direct radios on repeaters. I think the next big think will be RC control , which has performed reliably on garden railroads for some time and even operates live steam. With the rate of evolving miniaturization, what is now more common in other toy applications seems to be the next evolutionary stage, and will getting rid of all those conduction and sensitivity issues. I saw one control system recently by Aristocraft to that effect. I would be surprised if long term R& D would bypass this. If given a choice of direct radio control and hard wiring an entire layout, which is less complex? Then we have the issue of a obsolete base technology that is in hindsight more prone to failure, more sensitive or to put it simply less direct...as a collector and an operator, and former processing engineer the likely hood of the probability of this change or something similar makes me think twice about dropping 1200 on one crap shoot.but ..time will tell about keeping subcontracted boards in stock....for more than a decade. I think it unlikely.
Then, the question should be - what is the service life of a current "$1,000.00 Toy Train”?
The same electronic technology that goes into Toasters, Dishwashers and Televisions, is the technology that is built into the Model trains of today. Most companies warrant their electronic products for 1 year, because they know of the inherent failure rates of those components. Car manufacturers have 3-5 year warranties, because they are already charging you for the failed parts – in the initial purchase price. They spend millions of dollars on their research labs, trying to figure out the failure rates for electronic components that they incorporate into each vehicle – it’s all a matter of economics.
William’s warranty is based on provability, not on the fact that their products are made to last longer. They incorporate the same electronic technology (from different suppliers) into their products as the other manufacturers. Sears had a similar warranty for their “Sealed Batteries” several years ago – they lost their shirt on that deal. Now, they are pro-rated. A designed service life can be affected by many factors (Materials, workmanship, environment, ect.).
I do agree with you, in the fact that manufacturers should be responsible for a larger percentage of repair costs – based on the initial investment cost. You can throw away a toaster, but you are not going to throw away a $1,000.00 investment. Being a consumer is risky business. I must say though, that Mr. Cowen utilized the technology that was available at the time – a marvel of its time. Most homes did not have electricity or running water in the early part of the twentieth century. It took many years of trial and error to perfect the electric motor that we know and use today.
Nickaix,
I think that my definition of “Play” might differ slightly. There are many people out there (don’t throw anything at me…..) in the world, that are happy just by placing a train set on the track and seeing it go round and around. A $1,000.00 train set to me is not a toy, because I would not give it to my kid to “Play” with. Simplicity is really a great thing to have – I would love to have it, but I would change its name to Reliability. I would rather use a match to light a fire, than having to rub a couple of sticks together to achieve the same results (The match being technology). The realism that today’s model train manufacturers provide, allows the buyer the ability to re-create the “Real” world in 1/48 scale. I like the logistics aspect of it – for example, to create a complete industry (From the field to the grocery store).
I would have to respectfully disagree with your parsing of words. You say it is not a toy to give to a kid, yet it is you yourself that plays with it so it is a toy. as you cannot vacuum a rug with it. The "real world" of synthetic sounds versus imagination is an interesting theme that divides this generation from the postwar crowd, as well as elegant as in simple versus complex. So you may have hit upon a sort of generation gap of toy trains, or philosophy..but again, I remember when HO arrived and O Scale folks were called boiler-makers..crude and big and clunky. When HO was largely a do it yourself anomaly, O scale had operating accessories, sound ( so to speak) ..and then seemingly overnight, HO dominated O for a time, O was a more or less, a outmoded minority basket case. Then we got old and nostalgic and remembered our inner kid, away from a complex world. So in the end, it's Brand B versus Brand A subject to change. A $1200 engine today is literally how many bells and whistles can you get at the manufacturer's discretion as to how much the market will bear. On the other hand, this hobby may become a country club hobby with high sales figures and a low aggregate audience. I remember when more than a few wags predicted that a totally immersible experience of the future was the creation of computer simulations that made real world toys obsolete, virtual trains. That ship came and went. As did putting little cameras in the noses of diesels. That had a short shelf life. Anyone still have theirs? That is the other "issue." regarding the flavor of the month. They come and go. Our generation of boomers is on the way out and the toy train bubble may burst, but then we won't be around to wring our hands about it. I say enjoy it while you can. With the advent of 3D television, we may all be out on the main line at the controls of a T1..now that would be interesting...
On my layout I run conventional, TMCC, and DCS. They all have their positives and negatives. The electronic locomotives with the latest whistles and bells are fun and exciting to operate but they are expensive and not as bullet proof as my 55 year old 2026. If I had to run just conventional I probably would not be into electric trains as I am now.
Bill T.
There is a parallel in the automotive business. Since most of the electronics boards in cars have become unrepairable by most mechanics, an industry has sprung up to provide 2nd source electronics for cars. There are boards available for some Mercedes models back into the '70s. When the original board cannot be repaired economically, the 2nd souce guys redesign the board using more modern technology. In one case that I personally know of, a mechanic friend of mine and I spent a Sat afternoon redesigning the blower motor controller for a BMW. The original design was not done correctly. Our design took $5 worth of parts and takes about an hour to modify the controller. He sells it for $200 installed, and that is cheap. The BMW part, which will fail, costs $225 + the labor to install it. I predict the same thing will happen or is happening in the toy train business. There is nothing to keep the board manufacturers from coming out with new technology that will fit into older engines. It would seem this is the approach that will keep the engines alive indefinitely.
Bob Nelson has also given a lot of good advice on how to keep the boards from being damaged by ESD or voltage spikes on the power. I suggest that everyone who has not followed his advice and has had boards damaged or destroyed has nothing to complain about. Further, good ESD practices should be used when working on these boards. If you don't you may destroy the board with a static discharge from your fingers.
Bruce Baker
Ahhh….. An intellectual.
Wallyworld, reading your posts are like reading poetry. The depth of your insight is a marvel. I take great pleasure in playing the “Devil’s advocate” sometimes; by creating a controversy. The vehicle to understanding is communication. The definition of “Play” seems to be over simplified, when it refers to model trains. A Pencil is not only an object, it’s also a tool. When we have no purpose for the objects that we acquire, then they become objects of imagination. If they have a useful design, then they become tools. The trains that I have acquired, all have purpose.
As I have mentioned in a previous post, the history and function of the trains is what attracts me to the hobby. Being able to re-create the complete process of an industry (From the farm to the grocery store analogy), give me the opportunity to understand the transportation industry as a whole – a learning tool. In my opinion, the reason why most children have lost interest in the hobby, is because the “Lesson” has been lost in the “Toy”. I disagree with you….. It’s more than a Vacuum Cleaner……
Bruce,
I agree with you, in that a new industry will emerge from this situation. People are not going to throw away their investment. The economy of this country is based on fixing other peoples mistakes. Mass production of electronic components leads to premature failures – even with the best design and quality controls in place. The other end of the equation, is that most people have no concept of the technology that they are acquiring and have no need to have a connection to it. What is the percentage of drivers that know how to check their engine oil? They rely on someone else’s knowledge to keep the vehicle running. They assume no responsibility for ownership.
The parallel between that technology and our hobby is very similar. Prior to electronic controls in automobiles, things were “Simple”. I was one of the people that cursed its advent. Obviously, since then many things have changed. In order for our hobby to prosper, we need to embrace the technology (and fix its flaws) - not curse the dark.
Juan,
After thinking about your response, I believe I still have to stick to my original wording: "simplicity".
My experience has not been the experience of so many: my family has run TMCC and Railsounds locos for several years now, and (knock on wood) we have not had one failure. Call it naivete, but fear of component failure is not the motivating factor for me, so please don't put me on the "it's gonna break" bandwagon. Now, I do like to service the engines I have, so there is a little disappointment in knowing that I cannot service the newer ones because they are all boards and DC motors--but again, that disappointment is more because of a lack of simplicity than because of a lack of reliability.
Furthermore, I am not necessarily happy placing a train on the track and just running it--see my post in the realistic operation thread. But there is a certain operating experience, a certain "feel" to a simpler locomotive that I like. And I am willing to sacrifice certain things to have that. Realistic operation does not have to be on that list, though it does require more wiring to achieve it with traditional locos.
As far as whether a thousand-dollar loco is or is not a toy, well, I don't have any of those! I'm lucky insofar as what I like doesn't cost an arm and a leg!
Many years ago Ringo Starr introduced us to a plucky little steamer. By the time of that beginning, I was already "too old" to be watching "kids shows" like Shining Time Station. (Remember Shining Time Station? When Thomas the Tank Engine only occupied about 5 minutes of the total show's running time?) But I watched it, and I've never been ashamed to say that I did and still do. Why? Because this is a show that regularly features a toy train as a prime character. Better yet, those toy trains run on an elaborate layout.
What does all that have to do with the topic at hand?
I remember reading articles about how the show was made. Thomas, was an O-Gauge 2-Rail locomotive. The only special electronic gizmos on the engines were the R/C boards that controlled eye movements. When Thomas stopped at a station, smoke units under the track were activated to provide the "wheeshing steam." (What a great idea! It's so simple!) There was also an air whistle, though it's always been hard to tell whether it was a mechanical device or someone actually blowing their own air through a hole in a piece of metal.
Bottom line? I seriously doubt the people at Brit Alcroft in the days of Shining Time Station ever expected Thomas to take over the task of keeping trains alive in the minds of American kids. But somehow it happened, and Thomas the Tank Engine has become the patron saint of railroads. Walk up to any American kid and say "train" and you're more likely to hear them answer "Thomas" than "command controlled 3-Rail scale Hudson."
But you know what? Technology has ruined Thomas the Tank Engine. Modern "Thomas and Friends" episodes, as the show is now called, still feature the same 7 locos that started it all, (and many, many more) but now they have computer generated faces. The simplicity of the inherent complexity that comes from moving mechanical parts is lost. You can say that the show needed to be "updated" to keep the interest of a modern audience, but I tend to doubt that claim's validity. Charm is charm and it always will be. And Charm was what attracted me to the show in the first place. That charm gets lost however when 2 diametrically opposed worlds intract and suddenly Thomas the Tank Engine looks more like a corporate shill than a teacher of life lessons.
As long as technology stays in it's place I have no problem with it. But when it fundimentally changes my ability to enjoy the hobby I spend 365 days a year working on, that's a different story. If I can't even do the most basic of tasks with my trains, like pick them up, put them on the tracks and expect them to move, then it doesn't belong on my layouts.
Electronics have taken over the market and consequently poor people like me who can't afford to spend 100 dollars on an engine (forget 1200) can't build the layouts we want anymore. I see Hudsons, Y6B's and Berkshires providing the motive power on the layouts of my dreams. But all I can afford is Scouts, Atlantics and Prairies. I don't even have the ability anymore to worry about whether my MRC Dual Power O27 transformer will ruin yet another Protosounds board because the engines I want have been priced out of my reach.
So, I ruin classics. At least that's what I would expect many collectors would call it when I add homemade scale details to post-war steamers.
Over the weekend I finished setting up the first of 2 holiday layouts and the featured train is the Polar Express. But it's not either of the engines you're thinking of. My Polar Express is headed by an "enhanced" 2036 steamer and my cars are 1990's issue streamliners. By "enhanced" I mean I removed the 4-wheel trailing truck and replaced it with a 2 wheel truck and installed eccentric rods. I also added numberboards, a headlight hood and a bell to the front of the engine and handrails to the boiler and tender deck. I painted the cars blue and red and added paper label Polar Express markings, but eventually I want to replace those paper tags with dry transfers. And this is not the only example of modified motive power in my roster.
In the end the electronics war being perpetrated by Lionel and MTH has left those of us with the desire but not the means standing on the platform.
Becky
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
As much, as I like the new technology, I'm disappointed in it's cost, fragility and cost of repair.
For the amount initially paid the damned things should last, at least, as long, as the Pre and Post War items, especially with all of this so called Twenty-First Century BULL!!!!
Am I P-----!
Yeah!!
Ralph
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