Bruce and Bob,
Thanks for your input. Yes you are right, the switches are O42, Lionel 6-65168 and 6-65167 with 42 inch diameter curves. I cleaned the rails, adjusted the ftat center rail as I too thought at first it was a problem with the power pick up. But none of that worked. And I ran the engines through the switches as slow as possible and watched the head light and it stayed on the entire time. I measured the distance between the two power rollers and they are spaced far enough apart so that there is always one in contact with the center rail. I eventually determined that the problem occurred before the rollers got to the frog part of the switch. I looked up the terminology to describe the direction an engine enters a switch and when running these engines into the switches as a trailing point movement, going into the switch from one of the two possible routes, the problem occurred as soon as the wheels of the engines got onto the switch rails and activated the anti-derailing feature. It made no difference which way the switch points were to start with because the motor was activated anyway. So I became convinced this all had something to do with the way the control board sensed what was going on when the switch motor was activated. Incidentally, the problem also occurred when the engine entered the switch as a facing point movement - happening when the engines wheels got to the part of the switch where the insulated rails were. And, as I said earlier, this would only occur about 20 to 30% of the time. It happened on all six switches I have in operation that are factory wired. It never happened on any of the other 8 switches that have no power going to the switch motors. It occurs in both forward and reverse, when the engine has no cars attached and when the engine is pushing cars or pulling cars.
I'm powering the layout with an MTH Z-4000. I switched the power leads and it still happens. I've set up a test oval with two factory wired switches in the loop, both brand new out of the box, using an older 25 Watt transformer and the engines did the same thing, not all the time but frequently.
As I explained earlier and, as you both are probably aware, that in conventional mode the PS2 features are activated by tapping the horn and bell buttons in certain sequences. All that worked fine. So I tried causing a momentary break in power when the engines were running by tapping on the directional button to see if I could duplicate the engines going into neutral. The engine headlight and the passenger car lights would go out just for a split second and the engine would hesitate but would continue running in forward. Only when I held the directional button down longer did the engine actually switch to neutral. So I believe the problem is not a split second lose of power but again something with the change in current, volts, amps or whatever occurs when the switch motors are activated. Something in the engine's control board is affected.
I purchased the MTH 30-2968-1 AA units from Trainz.com. I talked to their tech support several times and described what was happening and they had no idea as to why this was happening. They gave me a name and number at MTH to call and talk to which I did and he had no idea why this was happening. No one had any solution to the problem. I sent back the first set of engines and Trainz.com sent me a brand new pair and they did the same thing. The MTH guy told me that all the engines they make with PS2 have the same control board. I was planning on buying a steam engine but it seems like I'd have the same problem with it. I had planned to eventually buy the DCS system but am not so sure now as I'd really like to resolve this issue first.
I no longer have the engines. I sent them back for a refund. And I would have been reluctant to alter the wiring or place any circuit devices in them as that would have voided the warranty for sure. Plus I'm not that knowledgeable about that sort of stuff. I also wonder if the control boards for the 2010 models have a faulty component. I would very much like to know if an engine manufactured in a previous year would do the same thing. Plus I can't believe I'm the only one that runs these engines on a layout with tubular track and the Lionel O42 fatory wired remote control switches. I'm not sure what to do at this point other than buy Lionel engines. I'd like to have something with the new sound features and the possibility to run with a remote once we move up to one of those systems. In fact, we already have the TMCC components but no engines so equipped.
I know this is a long post and I appreciate all the comments so far and any help anyone has to offer.
Mickey
I think he probably meant O42, not 042, that is, he was referring to O27-profile turnouts with a 42-inch diameter.
Bob Nelson
One more thought on your problem. When the engine wheels contact the insulated rail, and the switch operates, there is a voltage spike created by the coil in the switch motor. Bob Nelson has measured this spike at 200 volts. This is likely what is causing the problem. I assume you only have a problem when the switch motor throws the switch. You can fix this with an EMI filter on the power going to the board. Check Bob's posts for a discussion of a transient voltage suppressor (TVS). This might work well. I don't think you could use a capacitor to filter the power to the board as that would affect operation when you tap the buttons on the transformer.
Bruce Baker
kgstones,
If you have O gauge electric switches, they are 022, not 042. The 042 switches were the manual ones. Here is my advice re making your engines go through the switches. Make sure the track is very clean, both the center rail and the outside rails. Make sure your loco's wheels and pickup roller are clean. Use a Scotchbrite pad to clean everything. Do not use sandpaper or steel wool.
It is possible that the traction tires are causing a problem as they insulate the wheels from the outside rails.
It is also possible that the pickup rollers are too close together and not maintaining contact with the center rail as the loco goes through the switch. You can check this with a ruler or just by observing the rollers as the loco goes through the switch. You can bend up the end of the fat center rail slightly to improve this situation. If you bend it up too far, it will operate coil couplers as it will contact the sliding shoe.
I would encourage you to persevere as I am sure the problem can be fixed and you will have the satisfaction of fixing it.
If you can put the loco in neutral so the motor doesn't run but the headlight is on, push the loco slowly through the switch and see if the light goes off. If it does, you will have a good clue as to what the problem is.
Yes, sounds like you have ruled out grounding problems.
I have been playing with some Lionel O-27 turnouts lately. It bothers me is that there seems to be no mechanism to turn OFF the track power once the turnout has been thrown--as long as some part of the train is still on the insulated section, the coil in the turnout is still being energized. That would still be true if the turnouts were powered from a separate source, of course, but then the ongoing current draw should not affect the train itself, since it is taking place on a different circuit.
I really need to sit down and write about my experience with those MTH engines. That's a good thought but I'm pretty sure that's not the case. First of all the engines only did it about 20% of the time. But I think more telling is that I have a bunch of the 042 switches - some that are still factory wired so the switches get their power for the anti-derailing feature through the rails. I have other switches that have altered wiring so they are powered from a separate source. I haven't had time yet to power the altered switches yet so I operate them manually. The engines only malfunction going over the factory wired switches. The engines have NEVER gone into neutral running through the altered switches. And the altered switches still have the insulated rails. I'm convinced some component in the control board is so sensitive to the slight change in voltage or the current that runs through the engines wheels that it (the control board) thinkgs I've hit the direction button on the power supply. Incidently, when I actually do tap the direction button (not push it) when the engines are operating they hesitate and I see the passenger car lights blink off but the engines continue to run. In conventional mode, tapping and pushing the horn and bell buttons are how I/you control the PS2 features. So tapping those buttons signals the control board to do one thing and pushing them in a certain sequence tells it to do something else. It's stuff like this that leads me to believe the control board has a sensitive component or some faulty circuitry that MTH did not test run through these very common Lionel switches. It's probably something that no one thought of or it never occurred to them that there could be a problem. And I know this isn't a power pickup problem as I have isolated it to only the insulated part of the switches. The engines run fine through the points and frog parts of the switches. Any direction, any speed too. I'm just about getting to the entire story here. More later...
I really liked the MTH engines. My two Grandson's loved them too but got really frustrated because we use the anti-derailing switches in return loops so we don't have to constantly manually switch them.
Thanks again to all reading this...
Well, dad has the postwar cars, which the anniversary cars would be reissues of. If memory serves they are 15" carbodies, Could measure them next time I am there just to be sure. Am very sure that Lionel would not have altered the length of the cars, in the reissue as that would have meant all sorts of expensive retooling, and to what purpose?
With your MTH engines, could they simply be losing ground connection due to traction tires? The non-derailing switch works via an insulated rail, so you have only 1/2 as many wheels grounded as usual when you are going through the turnout...
Yes, it's the Santa Fe aluminum passenger cars. I have a set of MTH Santa Fe aluminum passenger cars, scale 60 footers that are 15 inches long not including the couplers. They are 16.5 inches long including the couplers. I really don't want passenger cars any shorter than that and I know MTH makes some that are. They're made to run on 027 curved track. So, I'm a little concerned that the cars in the anniversary set might be shorter since that extra space between cars adds up to an extra 10 inches or so that's taken into account in the total length of the set - 165 inches - that's 4 engine units (ABBA) and 7 passenger cars.
I've asked people selling the sets these same questions and they don't know. They don't want to open their sets to actually measure the engines and cars. I was hoping someone that has one of these sets could shed some light on this.
The reason I'm looking at the Lionel set is because I bought both the passenger cars and a set of AA E3s made by MTH. I ran the engines on tubular track in conventional mode and had a problem with them when they ran over Lionel 042 remote control switches with the anti-derailing feature. The MTH engine would switch to neutral about 20% of the time when it went across the switch. I talked to MTH about this problem and never got a good explanation as to why that was happening. I did a bunch of experimenting and finally decided there was/is a problem in the control board in the engines. I even sent back the first one I bought and got a second one that did the same thing. I wrote a post on this problem back in July and plan to add to that post when I get a bit more time. I was told by MTH the same control board is in all the MTH engines so I'm reluctant to buy any of their engines at this point. I was lucky that I bought the sets new so I could return them.
Thanks all.
Is this the Santa Fe set with aluminum passenger cars? If so, the cars would be just about 15" long, not including couplers--same size as the postwar cars. Of course, that is not scale length, but Lionel-length . Just last weekend, I saw some old stainless steel Burlington cars that looked exactly like Lionel's. I paced them off, and I think they are 72 footers. Not sure how long Santa Fe's were.
Lionel's F-3 were scale length, though.
AFAIK, any TMCC train will run in conventional mode so long as there is no Command Base connected from the track.
I've been thinking about buying the Lionel 100 year anniversary passenger set made in 2000. However, before doing so I'd like to know what the scale length or length in actual inches is of each of the engine units as well as the passenger cars. I can't find that information anywhere on the Lionel site or elsewhere. The entire set is 165 inches long so guessing the 4 engines are 13.5 inches long that would make each of the 7 passenger car bodies (not including the diaphragms or couplers) less than 15 inches which would be less than 60 scale feet. Does anyone know the actual lengths of these units?
Secondly, can this set be run in conventional mode?
And I suppose I might as well ask - how well does this set run or are there any problems with it.
Thanks,
MJS
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