New and in over my head.

[Anonymous]

New to the train world picked my kid up a Lionel train set quite awhile back. It's a simple set with cheap little plastic trains and a simple little steam engine. Well he wanted a Union Pacific engine so I bought one off ebay and this thing is way bigger than the rest of his set, fits on the track and his cars hook up however. It appears the transformer for the cheap one doesn't put out the power needed to run the two engine Lionel Union Pacific GP-9 Diesel Engine #6-18817. What do I need to power this engine up as far as a transformer? The light come on but thats about the size of it. Looks like I'm headed into a new level of train playing. What other things should I expect? Are there codes or numbers that designate the level of the Lionel trains so you can tell which type you are getting?

Thanks for any help.

Cory

[Anonymous]

Cory:

Sounds like your new UP diesels are scale size, while the starter set you bought are what's called "traditional scale."

Starter sets generally come with 40 watt transformers, which, as you've found out, don't do much more than power the set that they came with. As you've guessed, you'll have to upgrade to a bigger transformer.

Lionel makes a transformer called the CW-80. This outputs 80 watts of power & will probably be enough to power that UP GP-9 set. K-Line also makes a transformer that outputs 120 Watts, but I'm not sure what it's called. Others here can certainly tell you the K-Line transformer model number.

As far as other things to expect, well, that's entirely up to you. There's a lot of stuff out there in this hobby these days; the times have never been better for O gauge. There are command control systems that let you control the train by remote control. There are track systems that let you build layouts where the track almost looks real (I mean, there's a third rail in there, after all).

Good luck!

Tony

[eZAK]

[#welcome]Cory,

Hang in there! It should be a FUN and wild ride.

Your starter set trans should be able to move your GP-9.
Here are some points to consider.
1) Make sure your track is clean and you have good electrical conections.
2) Make sure the engines run/program switch(if present) is in 'Run'
3) Some engines start in neutral, cucle power on and off.
4) Re-read your directions, if not available contact Lionel.

If you are still having trouble let us know exactly what you are doing and what is happening, or you can take it to a service center and have it checked out.

What can you expect?

Walk around throttles, 386 computers inside your engine, digital sounds, a higher level of detail, unbelievable operating cars and Acc.and 4 major toy train importers.
Just to name a few.

To get started go to a local hobby shop that deals in trains.
Pick up some catalogs from the different companies.

Stay tuned to this forum

[Anonymous]

If I were you I would upgrade to a bigger transformer. Even if the one you have works you will want to get more stuff and will have to eventually get more power. There are a lot of nice people here on this site who can help you with information. I'm fairly new at this myself and have learned a lot here. Look at the web sites for the train makers like Lionel, Mikes Train House, Atlas and others. Get catalogs and read them a lot! They have a lot of information in them. Put together a small toolbox of tools for your trains like screwdrivers, pliers, wire, cleaners and clean rags. Use them to keep your stuff clean and they will operate great almost forever. Buy a book at a hobby shop that tells how to maintain your trains. It will be a lifesaver. K-Line has a book like this that tells all about how to maintain and repair Lionel trains but you can use it for almost any brand trains.

[Anonymous]

The starter set engine is NOT command control I'm sure. Is the UP? Sounds like it may be. they aren't compatible on the same track.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Amtrak Jack

The starter set engine is NOT command control I'm sure. Is the UP? Sounds like it may be. they aren't compatible on the same track.

When you say they aren't compatible on the same track I'm assuming you mean I can't run the two together. With that in mind I'll try and explain where we are at in a little more detail.

We have the little starter set with the steam engine and 5-6 rolling stock behind, this set up runs fine. We purchased a lot of extra Lionel 0-27 track which is the same as the starter set from what I can tell. We just purchased the UP engine via ebay and it is in like new condition so I'm assuming there is nothing wrong with this train. It appears to have two engines and I think the sale add also stated this. It also has lights and lighted little number areas along with a horn. It does have a run switch on the bottom also. We do not have an established track set up at this time so we put together a small oval 3' by 6' roughly and set the new diesel U.P. engine on the track by itself and the lights come on but the train doesn't go. It acts as if it doesn't have enough juice to actually run the motors. The transformer is a simple little slide bar that activates it. There aren't any other options on the transformer short of forward and reverse. The transformer is a Lionel Hobby Transformer #4065. 0-18 VDC, with a maximum output of 5.5 VA, at least that's what it says on the top of the transformer.

There are several new Lionel Transformers on ebay with the following add found below. This add states it has 0-18 volts as well which It looks like mine already has? It states this 0-18 is variable AC and from what I can tell the DC is what runs the track. I'm no electrician either as you can tell. Thanks for any and all advice thus far and in the future. I just don't want to buy this transformer and find that isn't the issue. Here's the add on the transformer for sale.

LIONEL O CW-80 80 WATT TRANSFORMER TRAIN NEW!

BRAND NEW!!! Enjoy operating your favorite locomotives, train sets and accessories with the CW-80, 80-Watt transformer. From the handsomely designed controller, reminiscent of the famous Lionel ZW, control speed and power by raising and lowering the engineer handle. Operate your favorite features with the bell, whistle/horn and directional buttons. On the rear of the unit, you will find a 0-18 volt variable AC output as well as a variable, programmable AC output for accessory operation. Simply set the accessory voltage to your desired output, and your accessory operates at that output until you turn the unit off - even when you stop the train! Perfect for train sets and small to medium size layouts, the CW-80 provides the power you need to enjoy all your Lionel favorites.

Fun times ahead I hope and even more so my 6 year old son hopes. I'm absolutely sure I had more patience at that age than he does but don't ask my mother that question. [:D]

Cory

[Kooljock1]

5.5 watts!!! YIKES! No wonder you're not moving the train! 5.5 VA is about 5.5 watts, correct guys? (V x A = W?)

That thing doesn't put out enough to light more than a few buildings, let alone run a twin-motored engine. Get yourself either the LIONEL BW-80, CW-80, or an older #1033, 1034, or MPC #4090. These transformers are all readily available on Ebay. The first two are rated at 80 watts RMS, while the others were rated at 90 watts. But by today's rating methods are more like 72 watts RMS.

I'm not aware of a twin-motored GP-9, unless it is a starter-set quality engine with truck-mounted CAN motors in platic trucks. If it is one of those, it won't require a huge amount of power, but certainly more than 5.5 watts! Go for the better transformer. The best two things your son needs is a good engine, and a good transformer.

Good luck, and don't be shy about asking more questions!

Jon [8D]

[Buckeye Riveter]

Cory, you do understand that Lionel's modern engines run on AC current, not DC. Two suggestions:

1. Take your GP 9 to a hobby shop with a test track to see if it runs on the test track. (Or if someone on this forum lives near you, I'm sure they would put it on their track to test it out.)

2. DC current is used mainly for accesories, not to power the track. the 0-18 volts is the power to the engine.

[Roger Bielen]

Cory,

Like Buckeye, the first thing that jumps out at me is the 0-18VDC, as he said the standard equipment is all AC with only some of the small starter sets being DC. Also, if the engines are scale sized the O27 curves might present a derailing problem, you won't know till you get the train running.

The best suggestion is to find another local enthusiest to test the unit, some dealers could be a bit touchy about testing a unit not purchased from them.

Also, don't write off the starter engine, it should be a simple conversion to AC if it isn't already able to run on AC.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vitabile



. K-Line also makes a transformer that outputs 120 Watts, but I'm not sure what it's called. Others here can certainly tell you the K-Line transformer model number.


Tony

Thats the Power Chief. That would be a good choice for him...[^]


WOW, 6watts THATS IT! Why would they put a piece of crap like that in that starter set!!![:0]

[ChiefEagles]

[#welcome] Cory. Don't get discouraged. Go to a hobby shop or get some one close by to help you run them [as suggested above]. You'll get them going.

[spankybird]

Welcome Cory,


You got great advice from all above.

tom

[Anonymous]

Problem solved! I love problem solving and you guys have been great help. Here is what I found. I decided to go into step by step problem solving starting with cleaning and see if the track was dirty or the wheels were dirty based on one of the comments. While cleaning the wheels I noticed that the front set would turn all the way around but the back set would only turn a little ways then stop and you could go back the other way and then they would stop again. So I marked one of the wheels and turned it around and it would make exactly one revolution before stopping which told me there was a problem in a gear somewhere. So I turned slowly checking every gear when it was at the half way point and low and behold I found a small piece of debris in one gear, I took a small needle and cleaned it out and it runs fine now. The directional control is something new for me but I think we are figureing this out as well.

Thanks for walking me through all this and be prepared, more questions are on the way. In fact let's start off with one now. Sounds like O scale track must be larger than 0-27 correct? So far this train makes the corners on the 0-27 fine pulling the all his little rolling stock. The odd thing is that the new diesel engine looks like it's half again as big as all the starter set rolling stock. Is this normal for Lionel or do I need to check for some type of train scale when I purchase more rolling stock. It could be that I'm just used to the steam engine being about the size of a box car and this diesel is twice as long as the box car and maybe that's normal.

You guys are great and this is getting funner by the minute. In fact I have an old insulated shed out back in a field that I'm thinking I might move up closer to the house and do a little work on and start my established track.

Cory

[guilfordrr]

O Gauge is availible in larger radiuses than 0-27. Your Geep dwarfing your
0-27 rolling stock is normal, but if scale fidelity is a concern, look for items advertised as "O scale" or "1/48".

[TexasEd]

Hooketrout,
Remmeber that while you do have traditional O-27 and Scale 3-rail equipment making different sizes that steam era rolling stock was a lot smaller than moder rolling stock.

I have two sets of stuff and I just run the cars an locos together that look right.

Ed

[lionelsoni]

Cory, the box for your GP9 claims "'O' and 027 gauge". This leads me to suspect that it is actually a little undersized.

"O27" can refer to the sharpness of the curves, but also to the rail profile. O27 has smaller rails than O (also called "O31"), closer to a realistic size. You don't have to abandon O27 to get gentler curves: O27-profile track is made in O42, O54, and O72 sizes. And it is not hard to find Marx O34 track, although it is no longer manufactured.

[Anonymous]

A quick tutorial / glossary:

Prototype: The engine / car / thing in the real world that is being modeled.

Scale: Refers to the proportion between the dimensions of the model & the real thing. True O scale items are 1 / 48 the size of the prototype. That's equivalent to 1' on the prototype measuring 1/4" on the model.

Gauge: The distance between the inside surfaces of the rails. On the prototype in the US, this is 4' 8 1/2"; in O gauge, it's 1 1/4".

Traditional Size: What we call "traditional size" toy trains all run on O gauge track, but are smaller than 1/48 the size of the prototype. Some are closer to 1/64, which is the size of S scale trains. Unlike S scale trains, however, these still run on O gauge track. Your starter set rolling stock is in this category.

TMCC: This is short for Train Master Command Control. This is a system from Lionel for remotely controlling trains. Engines that have TMCC installed in them have a Program/Run switch somewhere, generally on the underside. These trains can be run in "Command Mode" or "Conventional Mode" (see below).

DCS: Short for "Digital Command System." A competing command control system from MTH (Mike's Train House). Only MTH PS2 engines are equipped with this command system. I'm not familiar with DCS so I won't comment any further.

Conventional Mode: Triain speed is controlled by how much voltage is applied to the track. For A/C powered trains with a reverse unit (aka an E unit) and TMCC, you reverse direction by momentarily interrupting the power circuit. Trains cycle through four states: Forward / Neutral / Reverse / Neutral, etc. All model trains can be run in this mode.

Command Mode: A constant 18 V is applied to the track & the engine has a computer which listens for commands on a carrier signal (the method of transmission varies between TMCC & DCS). When the train detects a command addressed to it, it does whatever the command tells it to do. This includes increase speed, decrease speed, blow the whistle/horn, ring the bell, change direction, and open one of its couplers, as well as others.

Curve Nomenclature: The way in which we express the degree of curvature for curves in O gauge differs from other scales, where the radius is used. In O gauge, we talk about the diameters of the curve. An O27 curve has an OUTSIDE diameter of 27 inches, measured from the outside edge of one tie to the outside edge of another on the opposite side of the circle. Other diameters are measured from cener rail to center rail. So an O54 curve has a diameter of 54 inches, center rail to center rail.

O27 Style Track vs. O Style Track: O27 style track has a different profile from O style track. Even though the gauge is the same, O style rails & ties are taller than O27 style rails. O27 style track is actually closer to being correct in terms of scale, though they both have far too few ties to appear prototypical.

Other Track Systems: Lionel makes both O27 & O style track. Other manufacturers make other track systems, some of which looks very much like scale track (except for the third rail). Two of these are Gargraves & Atlas, who also make a wider variety of switches that are modeled on the ones that real railroads actually use.

Your GP-9 sounds like it's a command equipped engine. If it's a Lionel engine, it would have TMCC. Lionel has licensed other manufacturers, including Atlas & K-Line, to include TMCC in their engines.

Generally, scale size equipment gets run on O72 curves or larger. Many scale sized items can't be run on anything sharper than O72 curves. If you go this route, be prepared to spend boucoup $$$.

This is far from complete, but hopefully it's accurate. Good luck & welcome to the hobby & the forum!

Tony

[spankybird]

Cory,
Before you give up on the 027 track, you can make a very nice layout with it. My may layout is 027 and a few places 042 in 027 profile. Check out our web page by clicking on the web icon below.


click on the pic to enlarge it.

tom

[lionelsoni]

If I may expand on Tony's remarks and pick a few nits:

"Scale: ...True O scale items are 1 / 48 the size of the prototype...." For the US--European trains, like ETS, are made to 1/45 and 1/43.5.

"Conventional Mode: ...Trains cycle through four states: Forward / Neutral / Reverse / Neutral, etc...." Some cycle between forward and reverse only, no neutral.

"...All model trains can be run in this mode." But not the cheaper DC type that you got in the starter set.

"Curve Nomenclature: ...Other diameters are measured from cen[t]er rail to center rail. So an O54 curve has a diameter of 54 inches, center rail to center rail...." The radius of O27-profile O54 track (to the center rail) is 26 3/8 inches, or 52 3/4 inches diameter on centers. O42 is 20 1/4 and 40 1/2. O72 is 35 1/4 and 70 1/2. O34 is 15 3/4 and 31 1/2. So all are close to their nominal diameter measured across the ties.

"Your GP-9 sounds like it's a command equipped engine...." I don't see any evidence of that.

[FJ and G]

"I'm in way over my head."

----------------------------------------------------

Wait until you've spent 100K on trains, your wife and dog leave you, and you join the lunatics on the train forums all day.

[Buckeye Riveter]

Cory,
What kind of debris did you find in that gear? The only time I have ever gotten debris in the gears such that the engine would not run is when I ran the engine through the plastic snow on the Christmas layout. [*^_^*] I still hear about that repair from Mrs. Buckeye.

[dougdagrump]

Buckeye,
How goes the garden railroad?[oops][#offtopic]

[Anonymous]

Bob:

HookedTrout said, "It does have a run switch on the bottom also" in one of his earlier posts. If the switch is marked "Run" in one position, isn't that evidence of it being a command equipped engine?

Tony

[Buckeye Riveter]

Thanks for asking Doug. [:D]

You can see a short video of the Garden RR taken at the end of May at this url.

http://www.gahannawedding.com/Video/2004-5-30gardenrr.avi

It was much much easier to do than my layout inside. I'll take some more photos and video and post them for more to see.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by eZAK

[#welcome]Cory,

Hang in there! It should be a FUN and wild ride.

Your starter set trans should be able to move your GP-9.

First let me say thanks for the welcome and second thanks for your comment above. This comment made me take the time to really investigate before I made the purchase of a new transformer. I will more than likely make the investement but I will make a much more informed purchase now rather than just get something to make this train work now.

Cory the Hookedtrout

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Buckeye Riveter

Cory,
What kind of debris did you find in that gear? The only time I have ever gotten debris in the gears such that the engine would not run is when I ran the engine through the plastic snow on the Christmas layout. [*^_^*] I still hear about that repair from Mrs. Buckeye.

Looked to be a small piece of gravel or dirt just wedged inbetween two gears. Makes me wonder if this isn't why it was sold on ebay. Oh well no harm done works great now and it does do the forward, neutral, reverse, neutral thing or you can take it out of directional mode by switching it off on the bottom. I'm learning and you guys are great.

Hook

[Anonymous]

Just a great big thanks to everyone here, man did I pick the right model train forum to join. You guys are awesome. I'm a forum happy kind of guy anyway. The answer to all lifes questions seem to be best answered on the net. I run several forums of my own as I'm a non stop type of guy with way too many hobbies.

Thanks again to everyone.[:D]

Hook

[lionelsoni]

Tony, you may be right. I don't know anything about the various modern control schemes. I took the "run" switch to be the on-off switch for an electonic e-unit. I did look up some auctions that showed the box and did not see any mention of TMCC. Is it now assumed that modern Lionel locomotives always have it? I found these (typo-ridden) texts with the auctions:

"This item is an uncataloged diesel engine with display case.It is in brand new condition with box. It features Working Headlight,Illuniated Number Board, Operating Knuckle Couplers,Dual Motors,Tranformer Controlled Fo[r]ward,Reverse-Neutral Operation and Diesel Horn Remotely Activated by Transformer.This is a very sought after O guage engine."

"...This auction is for a Lionel Union Pacific GP-9 Diesel Engine #6-18817 The item has a die-cast Chassis, wheels and handrails. It has Dual Motors, illuminated number boards and working headlights. It has operating knuckle couplers and a diesel horn. This item is in it's orignal box and is in like-new condition. It has been on dislay only, and never been run...."

I would think that the sellers would mention TMCC if the locomotive had it. Maybe they don't know any more about it than I do.

[Anonymous]

Bob:

I'm no expert on the Lionel product line, but most of the higher-end stuff (maybe all of it) comes with TMCC. Most of the stuff in the first dozen pages or so of the catalog doesn't have TMCC, then just about everything does, until you get to the rolling stock.

But you're right, the description above does not make it sound like the unit has TMCC. I guess it could be an electronic E unit. Both of my son's engines have these, but I never really looked at them closely. Since they're both on the layout now, maybe I'll take a peek at them tonight.

Tony