MTH Premier vs. RailKing.... Huh??

[GPJ68]

Ok, I'm confused.

I thought the Premier line was supposed to be scale and the RailKing line semi or traditional sized (I'm only talking about freight cars right now, not loco's, passenger, etc). I picked up an operating RailKing CSX dump car a short while back, but would have preferred a Western Maryland version available only in the Premier lineup (I'm not interested in scale, only "traditional"). Looking at the catalog pics, it certainly appeared that the two cars were identical (never could find any accurate dimensions of either one). Well I just picked up the Premier car in WM livery, and lo-and-behold, it's the exact same car as the RailKing version, just with a different paint scheme!

What gives? Is the CSX (RK) dump car actually scale sized, or the WM (Prem.) dump car traditional sized? Not that it matters all that much as far as these dump cars are concerned - although now I'll keep an eye out for more WM dump cars. I've always avoided even looking at Premier freight as a whole because of the scale vs non-scale issue (and higher price). Now I'm wondering how many other MTH freight cars have crossed the Premier/RailKing lines yet remain identical, and what are they actually - scale or traditional sized?. I want to pick up some covered hoppers, side discharge hoppers, cylindrical hoppers, etc., but now I'm a little nervous about ordering MTH RailKing cars and finding out too late that they don't mix well with my predominantly traditional and O27 collection. Already made that mistake once with a Williams Western Maryland stock car - turned out it was scale sized and didn't blend well at all with the rest of my box and stock cars, while the Williams WM N5c caboose looks excellent.

Cars I'm wondering about include Premier line 2 and 3 bay centerflow hoppers, 3 and 4 bay hoppers (not the open top coal hoppers), PS-2 hoppers, high sided hoppers, airslide hoppers, offset and composite coal hoppers, and RailKing line 4 bay cylindrical hoppers and PS-2 hoppers.

GPJ

[Anonymous]

Dear GP J68:

I think that you are a victim of toy train cost-cutting. Even Mighty MTH has faced the need to pare costs to save the bottom line. The litigation with Lionel alone must have been enough to drain Mike Wolf's bank account!

It has been obvious to me that MTH stopped associating "Premier" with "scale proportioned" some time in the 1990's. The GP-38, and the ALCO RS-27 appeared in the "Premier" and the "RailKing" lines in successive years, indicating that the notion of scale fidelity was more a bottom line consideration at MTH, than it was a philosophical one.

Today, I believe the "Premier" designation, and its purple box, only indicate that the loco will set you back more than $500. I think that this is truly sad for the hobby.

Yours truly,

Wendell

[Richard A]

GPJ,

Welcome to the crowd re being confused. One of the recurring threads on several of the forums over the years deals with hobbyists' desire to have all the importers/manufacturers clearly label boxes as to reproduction scale, no matter what it is. Each importer/manufacturer should at least establish a nomenclature for their own models, explain it and then STICK to it. Atlas O is consistent ( 3- or 2-rail scale), Lionel Standard O is supposed to be 3-rail scale, and so forth.

I have a relatively small collection of MTH freight rolling stock, the majority of which is Premier. It is all 3-rail scale. But two of the Railking oil tankers I have are 3-rail scale, also. When I learn that the same prototype is being modeled in both "classes" (i.e. - Premier and Railking) from MTH, I always measure and compare prices between them. I do the same with K-Line Gold vs. Classic) Level of detail will usually be better on the more expensive one, but sometimes that is of negligible concern.

One of the benefits of having a good local hobby shop close by is I can take my trusty scale ruler there and measure before I buy.

Otherwise, it can be a toss of the dice.

Good luck!

[ChiefEagles]

Just getting back into the hobby since 20 years, I find it confusing too. I orderd two new MTH NS GP60's in RailKing. Well, the catalog says scale size. I think they don't have diesel smoke as the difference to the Premier line. I have a RailKing NS caboose and it looks just like the Premier line.

[spankybird]

I was told, and it may just be hear say, that some of the older Primer Line was being re-introduced into the Rail-King line at a lower price. I see it as making more cars – engines on the same tools. More return on your investment. We the buyer are making out, if you wi***o wait long enough to see if it is produced as a Rail-King.

The one CSX PH40 Rail-King that I pick up this year has smoke and cab fingers. Something that was only on the Primer line in the past.

tom

[Anonymous]

Not only has MTH blurred the Premier Line with RailKing, but if you wait a bit you see the premier appear on EBay at RailKing prices. A lot of the automated cars cost 20-30% more as Premier than RailKing for the same automation but with selected road names.

Alan

[spankybird]

As I have seen it. It’s the Rail-King line now having the scaled Primer produces. Not the Primer line have Rail-King cars – engines.

That means if you wi***o take a gamble that MTH will introduce the Primer item at a lower price in the Rail-King line, then we are the winners to have it at a lower price.[:D]

It just means that you may have to wait 2 or 3 years for that to happen, if it ever does happen. Do you fell Lucky [?][:)]



tom

[brianel027]

GPJ, I know exactly what you are talking about. The Railking line-up in the past few years has moved in the "scale" direction. As said above, they are using the older Premiere line tooling (that now is lacking in scale detail as compared to other product) and using it to produce Railking items.

Even before this happened, the Railking items have been nearly always a little larger than your typical "traditional" Lionel and K-Line types of items. It is this reason that I own very little Railking stuff. I do have one of the dump cars you have GPJ and you're right, it is big. Although it is well made, reasonable priced and operates like a charm, I seldom run it because of the size. I've been temped to pull it apart and make an operating trackside accessory out of it.

The standard 40 ft. Railking box car is also a little bigger than your 6464 style, but isn't too bad. I shortened the mounting nubs inside the car and got the shell to fit a little lower on the frame so it doesn't look quite as out of place. I also have a PS2 hopper which I like a lot. But I also modified this car too and got the shell to fit a little lower so the car doesn't tower so much above the others. I also lowered the roofwalk by removing the nubs that make it stick up above the roof of the car, so that "visually" it looks a little smaller.

I don't mind some size variation... this is how it is on real trains too. But you can tell by looking at some cars and locos, that they are simply just way out of place with some of the more traditionally sized trains. So I've given up on Railking. The Rugged Rails cars are nice, but the roadname selection has languished severely - with the exception of breakup cars from train sets. Why the heck no one makes some smaller cars in current modern roadnames is beyond me.

Which is why I have learned to make and modify my own cars. I've been making smaller coil cars for years, and in modern roads too. I've even seen actual smaller coil cars for real, so the train importers can't say it isn't prototypical - because it is!!!

Part of the deal here is the train importers dread the label "027" like the Black Plague. The modelers who spend lots of money are demanding scale sized stuff, and they're gettting it. It is the modelers who cannot spend ooodles of money on trains that have been left in the cold - except for reissues from the same old tooling that's been around for decades... and in the same exact roadnames that have also been around for decades.

Williams is really the only company that bothers to issue some modern roadnames on items that will run on smaller "traditionally" sized layouts - even if those are items that have also been long available, like the NW2, the GP9 and the Centercab. NO ONE else has bothered to make those in BNSF, CR, CSX and NS.

Save for an occasional offering from Lionel that is always overpriced and usually sub-par on quality when compared to Williams for example... the Conrail U36B from 2 years ago being an excellent example of this.

[GPJ68]

Looking back thru my limited collection of recent catalogs (Lionel, MTH, & K-Line), it really does appear that the traditional operator is getting an ever-decreasing "slice of the pie". If one wants more than just boxcars, open-top hoppers, basic tank cars, and gondolas, you're gonna be stuck with mixing older "cast-off" scale pieces now re-labeled as what has "traditionally" been traditional sized. That's a bummer.

Guess I'll just have to bite the bullet and order a PS-2 and a few other covered/side discharge hoppers to find out how well they'll blend in. I'm out here in Bullpuckey Egypt - the closest train stores that stock 3 rail are over 1 1/2 hours away - and those few don't have much (if any) rolling stock out-of-the-box for display (and they don't like opening boxes to get a close-up inspection), and alot less in the road names I'm interested in. The great majority of my purchases (since getting back into the hobby) have been via eBay anyway, due to budget restraints as well as distance.

Like Brian said, a little variation isn't a big deal, especially between different car types (covered hoppers vs boxcars vs dump cars), but that can quickly get out of hand when more "old" scale starts replacing any new traditional production. I do remember reading awhile back that MTH was starting to re-issue some older Premier loco's as RailKing, but I was under the impression that is was limited to motive power and not rolling stock - obviously I was mistaken.

On the one hand, I can't blame MTH (or Lionel or K-Line) for wanting to get more use out of old molds once meant for scale offerings, but the least they could do is provide better documentation/demensions for these re-issues, rather than just re-labeling them and letting their customers find out the hard way.

I may eventually take Brian's route of replacing/modifying truck mounts - I've done it some on cars (2460 6 wheel crane trucks on a tender, new Lionel cast sprung trucks replacing MPC plastic ones), but I have a hard time justifying that on new cars. If the manufacturers opt to ignore us traditional operators more in the future, then I just won't be buying much new rolling stock. Just as well, as there are a number of accessories out that I'd like to start picking up.

I guess I'll have to unload more of my Lionel O27 switches though. I've modified my track plan to use predominantly Marx 34" and Lionel/K-Line 42" O27 curves and switches, so the 27" curve/switch issue won't be a problem (except in the planned yard area). I've also found that my Williams SD-45 (which I guess is scale sized?) will clear (barely) a Marx 27" switch (the one with the low wide switch cover). A little 45 degree filing of the edge will help a little more. If the diesel will clear, rolling stock (that doesn't have a low & wide fuel tank) shouldn't be a problem either.

Live and learn, live and learn....

[spankybird]

Hi GPJ38

I thought that I would share this with all of us. This first pic is of K-line scale and MTH scale and near scale box cars – stock cars.



Oh by the way, I do use 027 track and 027 K-line low profile switches.

I took the same train and added some of Lionel and K-line 6464 box cars, just to show the mix.


I guess, it’s each to there own, but I don’t fell that it looks that bad, or any different from a real train.


tom

[Anonymous]

interesting post. As mentioned earlier, most railking stuff (even the older original railking stuff) is going to be significantly larger than the 0-27, 6464 boxcar, "traditional" stuff.

[brianel027]

Just some more thoughts GPJ on this topic, since I am sort of an expert in this area... the "scale" sized K-Line welded steel side box car (the one with no roofwalk) is a nice candidate for 027 layouts... you can add the white stripe on the ends with the words "No Roof Walk - Oversized Height." Even without those words, this box car has a somewhat more modern look and fits in with the scope of the smaller "traditional" cars, esp. on 027 curves.

If you are prone to repaint and rebuild, the typical 027 2-bay hoppers by K-Line and Lionel can be converted to "simulated" bathtub gon hoppers by cutting off the angled hopper chutes and replacing that with wood or plastic tubes to imitate the look of the bathtub gon. Even without making this modification, even a more modern bathtub style paint job (all silver with a green panel, for example like the BN or BNSF) can give the appearance of a more modern car.

I've taken plastic piping and sliced it to create a "tupperware top" for my 2-bay hoppers. Chessie System developed this, and Conrail also used the idea - but they were the only roads to do this. But here again, you're taking a run of the mill 027 item and giving it a more modern look. This top can also be made for gondolas, which I have also done.

Taking a beater 6400 type gondola, and cutting off the bottom and mounting this to another gondola and you can create a facsimile of a wood chip gondola.

Even just putting current roads on the smaller cars goes a long way towards a modern look. I have plenty of 9-inch cars in CSX, NS and CR. And colors... how about MOW equipment... Conrail had yellow and grey MOW cabooses; yellow, orange, grey and grey-green gondolas. Norfolk Southern has orange MOW cars. And the CSX "pumpkin" MOW scheme looks pretty darn good on a K-Line Alco FA... I custom made the decals for that one myself. Even adding a working strobe light or ditch lights to the smaller types of locos adds a modern touch.

Just 'cause it ain't scale, doesn't mean it can't be up to date.

[FJ and G]

I agree 100% with most of what was said. Scale is great. Semi-scale is great. But PLEASE label them as such! Truth in advertising is so important and I believe that we are being misled by the companies which want to turn a quick profit by having you believe something is scale when it is not. They aren't lying; just deceptive, IMO.

Although I'm an MTH fan and most of my stuff is MTH, they are a big offender in this respect, but not the only one.