Post War 2000 series passenger car question

[mikeberry]

Hi everyone,

 I don't get on here much, but I am hoping someone can help me out.  I have four 2000 series post war passenger cars.  Elizebeth, Clifton, Clifton and Summit.  I have always had a problem with constant derailments at any switch.  I thought it might be a switch problem, but those are the only four cars that have an issue.  I got to looking at the trucks on the cars and they all have a significant amount of play in regards to the wheels on the track. If a car is on the track I can "slide" the car at least a quarter to half inch before the wheel flange will contact the rail.  The trucks appear to be fine.  Nothing bent, nothing loose.  It is like they were made for a slightly smaller track width.  All other post war cars I own have a much tigher spacing between the rails and have no issues with derailments.  Has anyone else experienced this?  If anyone has any suggestions I would really appreciate hearing them.  I love running these cars, but I don't even bother anymore.  Thanks!

[nickaix]

 Well, we have some 2500 series (aluminum) cars that used to cause a lot of trouble, but on those the wheels were too far apart.  We spaced them in by putting a small horseshoe clip around each axle between the wheel and the truck sideframe.  You might try something similar, except between the wheel and nub on the axle that is supposed to hold the wheel in gauge.  Be sure to oil it when you are done to mitigate any excess friction this might cause.

[lionelsoni]

I use number-2 washers for that purpose.

[steinmike]

Mike:

Like many others in the forum, I run post-war 2400-series passenger cars on my layout, and have done so for some time with few problems.

It would help to know what type of track and what type of switches you are using, that might help a bit. I'm using "O" gauge tubular track with a mix of 31" and 42" curved sections and there is very little play in the wheelsets - they are pretty snug between the rails.

The post-war 2400 cars differ from modern production in that the wheels are not pressed onto the axle, but rotate freely.  Metal tabs extend from the sides of the plates holding the pick-up roller to keep the wheels in gauge.  Without additional information, my first thought would be to check the tabs to make sure that they exactly in line with the front and rear edges of the pick-up assemblies.  If they have been bent or removed, that would account for the problems with your wheelsets.

I should have some time to be online this weekend and will check if you have any additional questions.

Good luck!

 

[lionelsoni]

The coupler assembly is not the primary means by which the wheels are kept in gauge, although they may take over that job if the axle or wheels are worn.  The rear truck of the Summit and Mooseheart lacks couplers entirely.  The wheels are kept in place primarily by the small upsets near the ends of the axle.  These can wear a cone into the inside end of the hole through the wheel and can themselves wear away.  Whether or not a coupler assembly is in place, a washer between the upset and the wheel can usually restore the gauge.

[mikeberry]

Thank you everyone for the help.  As you have described, the wheels just sit freely on the axle and the metal "tabs on the axle keep the wheels spaced out.  I believe the metal tabs have worn and the washers will probably fix the problem.  I am using 027 track and 1122 switches.  Almost everything I am running is Post War.  I will try and include some pics a little later today. 

I do not get a whole lot of time to work on my trains during the warm months as I have a 2.5 year old boy, a wife (  :)  ) and a four unit building that I am constantly trying to improve.

 I have always loved model trains and my collection started with my Grandfather (He passed when I was four).  My Dad eventually ended up with all the trains (I have two Uncles that also had part of the trains).  It was a pretty good size collection and it was just packed up in the basement for years.  I was going to build an HO layout and thought it would be more fun to ask for the Lionel stuff.  I drove from NY to WI to pick up the Lionel stuff and that started my collecting of Lionel.  Also, it just so happened that the weekend I drove out there was a huge train show in Madison that we went to.  I thought that was quite the coincidence as neither one of us knew about the train show when I planned to drive out there.

I have been collecting Lionel Post War for 5 years now.  I have probably tripled the original collection.  My Son LOVES going into the train room.  He can pretty much run all the trains, whistles, horns and accessories by himself.

 I justed wanted to give everyone a little background about myself.  I am 35.  Like I said, I will try and post some pics of my layout later today. 

 Thanks again for all the help!

[servoguy]

Mike, it would help if we knew where on the switch the derail occurs: at the points or at the frog. Derailments at the frog usually are caused by the wheels being too far apart so that the guard rail does not guide the wheels through the frog. I have found several freight cars that had bent trucks so that the axle end play was too great and the wheels could spread too far apart and so would derail on the frogs. Bruce Baker

[sir james I]

2400 series cars had a sliding shoe for the uncouple rail. It is usually the shoe that snags on the switch. You can file down the edges of the shoe to give it more slant, that helps the shoe slide up and over the switch rails. Operating cars also have this shoe and can derail  as well.

At some point lionel changed the coupler assembly and eliminated the pick up shoe if thats the case with your cars then a swap of wheels and axles would be the correct fix. Yours may be worn and too loose.

[mikeberry]

Hi everyone,

 I did some looking and took some pictures.  I believe what is happening is that the wheel spacing is so loose that when the car goes over the switch one wheel goes below the track line and when the switch narrows slightly it forces the other wheel over the rail.

I don't know if there is an earlier version of the 2400 series with a sliding shoe, but mine do not have the sliding shoe.

 I do not see how to post pictures.  I will see if I can figure out how.

 Thanks!

[mikeberry]

Here are two pics of the derailment and some more of my layout.

[nickaix]

Are you sure that little guy didn't cause this somehow? He has a guilty look 

Judging by the pictures, I would guess that the flanges on the left side of the truck (if you are standing behind the car) have caught on that guardrail that you can just see the end of under there. As the car tried to ride up on the guardrail the whole thing moved to the right, and the wheels ended up on the wrong side of the guardrail altogether.

Anyway, your first hunch is probably right: the gauge of the wheels is too narrow. 

[mikeberry]

Ha ha!  He didn't cause this one, but he has been involved in a few "accidents". 

 I had some time last night to really check out the trucks.  The sides of the truck are very loose.  If you grab the side of the trucks they move back and forth on the rivet creating quite a bit of play for the axles; which in turn creates a lot of play for the wheels.  It looks like the sides of the trucks are bent out slightly.  As soon as I get some time I am going to pull the trucks on one car, bend them in to get rid of the slop and test it out.  I will post pics and the results.  Thanks for everyones help, it is very much appreciated.

[lionelsoni]

End play in the axles is normal.  If you bend the sideframes in too much, you won't be able to get the wheels back into them.  Some play in the riveting between the sideframes and the bolster is also normal.  The sideframes are cast in zinc, which is brittle at room temperature.

In any case, if the problem is, as you supposed, a wheel gauge that is too narrow, nothing you do with the sideframes will change that.

[mikeberry]

I think what I will do before I ruin my trucks is post some pictures of the play in the trucks and see what you guys think.  I can always just add the washers.  I will try and post some pics tonihght.

[mikeberry]

OK, I believe I have found three different issues with the trucks.

1. The looseness of the side frame of the truck pivoting in the rivet.  There are two pieces of metal that can be squeezed together to reduce almost all this looseness.

2. The side frames of the trucks appear to be bent slightly outward instead of sitting vertical to the car.  With the truck off, I was able to gently squeeze the metal part of the truck that rivets to the side frames to bring the side frames straight up and down to the car.  This reduced some play in the wheels, but there is still quite a bit.

3.  The wheels have a lot of room to slide back and forth on the axle.  Upon close inspection and comparison to other trucks, I found that the metal tabs that butt up against the inside of the wheel where severly worn.  I couldn't really tell until I compared it to other trucks.  I will add two small washers to the inside of each wheel and see if that corrects the problem.

 Between these three things, I think I will end up with properly working cars. 

I will try and get some pics posted after I have tried adding the washers.  It may be a few days, but I will let everyone know if this works to solve the issues.

Thanks again for all the help!