"Due to changes in China with Sanda Kan we will no longer be producing K-Line by Lionel products after 2010."
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
A sad day for sure.
overallA sad day for sure.
Ditto that
wallyworld "Due to changes in China with Sanda Kan we will no longer be producing K-Line by Lionel products after 2010."
lionroar88wallyworld "Due to changes in China with Sanda Kan we will no longer be producing K-Line by Lionel products after 2010."Care to reference this? NOTHING about this on Lionel.com
It went to distributors. However, follow this link to Bachman "who are exploring their options."
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,13871.0.html
Also there is reason to suspect that Lionel wanted to kill off K Line as another noted that:
Might we see the ressurrection of a bankrupt toy store chain "K.B. Toys", short for K-Line Bachmann.
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dougdagrumpMight we see the ressurrection of a bankrupt toy store chain "K.B. Toys", short for K-Line Bachmann.
Things are certainly be shifted and rearranged quickly these days.
It may be dead or was it already previously dead. Maybe now it is free.
K-line was the best, a few years ago I got an double motor fp7 for $60, Lionel doesn't come close to that value.
The wise young man K-line was the best, a few years ago I got an double motor fp7 for $60, Lionel doesn't come close to that value.
Sanda-Kan, under the J.P. Morgan Asian Trust, produced model trains for 80 manufactures. Under Kadar (Bachmann) only the 20 most profitable will be retained. The rest must find new China builders.
Note: on Aristo-Craft forum
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I just went to the Bachmann website that user "wallyworld" had a referance to and there is NO definate plans as of yet as to what Bachmann may do, not even a hint! Bachmann's official word is "wait & see!" Also Bachmann had no mention about any of the money that K-Line owes, or any business connections.
My feelings is that the investors at Bachmann are trying to see if buying the K-Line name would be profitable or not in the long term.
I would like to see some stuff made again that K-Line had, like dual powered diesel engines, also the Super Streets by K-Line, and some of the interurban passenger sets.
Lee F.
I personally have felt that the day Lionel took over K-Line it was the end of K-line and from what I saw from that day forward I felt I was right as Lionel did as little as possible to promote and further K-Line if Bachmann takes it over they will probably try to make it a line equal to MTH or Lionel and come up with there own command control like RMT ( Aristo Craft) have come out with I believe someone has mentioned on here.
I just believe you will not see K-Line anymore just like some of the other old ones. I felt Lionel really didn't want K-Line but took it trying prevent someone else from now don't take me wrong as what K-Line supposedly did was wrong but I feel and Felt that K-Line would of done better in the hands it was in. I also feel that Williams is going to be next sooner or later. as I don't see Bachmann trying to do anything new just run what was and not all but most of to basically get there money back they paid and then it will start to get smaller and smaller. Hope I'm wrong about Bachmann and Williams as the Williams line. Now as an after thought If Bachmann takes K-Line over this may be there line with command control. Which could be good
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Am I correct in assuming that this action by Sanda Kan will affect all scales ? Will this mean that there will be smaller number of model trains made world wide? I wonder if the hobby press will have full coverage on this? I guess we will have to stay tuned.
George
Lee,
To clarify that you read more into what I said versus what was was posted.
If you read my original post I said they were exploring their options.
Actual post:at Bachman reads "We're aware of the situation and we're exploring our options at this time. When and if there's something to announce, we'll do it here."
I never said they had decided anything, That's why they are exploring rather than choosing an option.
Kadar industries, the owner of numerous model railroad brands, IMO will get the SK tooling in production ASAP. Whether they will be able to use the K-Line brand is an unknown, maybe they don't want to use the K-Line brand. Its possible that Kadar will use the SK tooling under the Bachamann or Williams brand. Whatever happens Kadar Industries has deep pockets and can be a major player in the O Gauge hobby.
Bill T.
Please don't shoot but I have a "sort-of" un-informed or naive question. Does all this 'news' mean that existing K-Line products will be in more demand and worth an investment or does it mean that the products (like "Old Soldiers") will just fade away? As always, many thanks.
Your guess is as good as mine. It seems to be dead inasmuch Lionel dropped it but then perhaps Bachman or some other firm may buy it.As to the passing of the product line enhancing their value, time will tell. My own opinion is it's unlikely.
"K Line Officially Dead" Huh? By any chance are you referring the hobby developments discussed here?. An expected entry of "Kline by Bachmann" into the hobby has been rumored in the halls of York (and discussed elsewhere) since shortly after Kader purchased Sanda Kan (from one of J.P.Morgan's hedge funds). The only surprise is that people are surprised by this announcement. The current lively speculation is what type of remote command system (if any) might Kader/+ be using for its expected premium products!
I STILL don't get where you are all getting that it was Lionel who dropped K-Line. Sandra Kan owned the tooling and Sandra Kan was bought by Bachman/Kadar. So it would seem more likely that it was Bachman/Kadar that put the kabosh on this since they said, when they bought SK, that they would be evaluating ALL lines they produced and would be dropping the less profitable ones. I also seem to recall talk that Lionel was considering pulling some, if not all, of their manufacturing back to the US.There is a lot of 'reading between the lines' that needs to be done, and you have to take your Orange & Blue and Purple & Yellow glasses off to understand it all.I, personally, was concerned when Bachman bought Williams and the Sandra Kan. If my memory serves me correctly didn't SK manufacture for MTH, Lionel, K-Line, AND Williams?
lionroar88I STILL don't get where you are all getting that it was Lionel who dropped K-Line. Sandra Kan owned the tooling and Sandra Kan was bought by Bachman/Kadar. So it would seem more likely that it was Bachman/Kadar that put the kabosh on this since they said, when they bought SK, that they would be evaluating ALL lines they produced and would be dropping the less profitable ones. I also seem to recall talk that Lionel was considering pulling some, if not all, of their manufacturing back to the US.There is a lot of 'reading between the lines' that needs to be done, and you have to take your Orange & Blue and Purple & Yellow glasses off to understand it all.I, personally, was concerned when Bachman bought Williams and the Sandra Kan. If my memory serves me correctly didn't SK manufacture for MTH, Lionel, K-Line, AND Williams?
Lionel owns the K Line brand. Lionel discontinued the brand. Pretty simple. I think you are trying to an end run around the facts.If Lionel wanted to save it ( which you infer it could not have) then it would have. I don't know if you are an apologist for Lionel or are a die hard fan of the brand, but these are not opinion, these are facts. They owned the decision, not Bachman, not Sanda Kan. Was their decision influenced by other events? Of course. It's their brand, their decision, rightfully or wrongfully. I think you are parsing language for a rationalization where they need none. It's their toy..
I'm an appologist for no one.
"
This comes right from the site you linked.And the response from Bachman did nothing to refute the content.If you know so much about business then you would know that a 'partnership' can be terminated by either party. Again, since there has been ZERO word from Lionel on their site, one can justly surmise that: 1. This was not Lionel's decision 2. This was Lionel's decision OR 3. This was a mutual severing of ties.
Now I ask you, since you are so knowledgable on business. Why would you agree to keep manufacturing product for another company when it is digging into your profit margins? SK owned the tooling, Lionel owned the name... so how could Lionel 'save the brand' if they weren't making sufficient profit and they don't own the tooling to possibly bring the manufacturing under their own roof? Seriously, this isn't rocket science.Are you an appologist for MTH, Weaver, Bachman, Sandra Kan, Kadar?
There are two lines of communication, one for business partners and one for consumers. Lionel is not going to blindside their distributors by putting the cart before the horse by making an announcement on Lionel. com before notifying those who are directly involved in the business versus those who purchase the product. You were not told first because you are a consumer, not a business partner. As for your other comments, ask Lionel. It's a business decision that has little to do with which are our favorite toys, I have no favorites but I do like variety as a consumer. I think it's reasonable to assume that Bachman may be giving us a third party competitor to MTH and Lionel, which as a consumer I would prefer. Again this is speculation as all of this is up in the air. Again Lionel dropped the brand. Period.As I said before, they did not do anything with the brand as it appeared as an afterthought, perhaps added as a sideline to pay off the debt during the aftermath of the legal battle.They may have ended up with no loss, but frankly, who cares? The bottom line is the same. As for further forensic examination of why the patient died on the table is like beating a dead horse. It is what it is.
The bigger and more important question is where the hobby is going as a result of this.
wallyworld Lionel owns the K Line brand. Lionel discontinued the brand. Pretty simple. I think you are trying to an end run around the facts.If Lionel wanted to save it ( which you infer it could not have) then it would have. I don't know if you are an apologist for Lionel or are a die hard fan of the brand, but these are not opinion, these are facts. They owned the decision, not Bachmann, not Sanda Kan. Was their decision influenced by other events? Of course. It's their brand, their decision, rightfully or wrongfully. I think you are parsing language for a rationalization where they need none. It's their toy..
Lionel owns the K Line brand. Lionel discontinued the brand. Pretty simple. I think you are trying to an end run around the facts.If Lionel wanted to save it ( which you infer it could not have) then it would have. I don't know if you are an apologist for Lionel or are a die hard fan of the brand, but these are not opinion, these are facts. They owned the decision, not Bachmann, not Sanda Kan. Was their decision influenced by other events? Of course. It's their brand, their decision, rightfully or wrongfully. I think you are parsing language for a rationalization where they need none. It's their toy..
I may be wrong but I was under the understanding that Lionel had a renewable Rights to 1 the name and 2 the dies Lionel doesn't own either. And has the option to buy both if it wants but at present doesn't own either.
So what happens will be decided at corp level and they may or may not be deciding to let K-Line name go. Or Sandra Kan can be deciding not to.
I personally believe this is all coming to surface wheather factual or rumor due to it's time for Lionel to renew it lease
Lionel marketed K-Line and did not own either the tooling or the brand. Either Lionel or Sanda Kan or both could have decided not to continue, although Lionel had first dibs on buying the tooling and the brand as I recall the original agreement. So this is probably (mostly) Lionel's decision not to buy the tooling and brand under the original agreement. My totally wild guess :) is the volume was attractive neither to Lionel nor Sanda Kan for continuing the agreement and that K-Line, as a brand, is permanently and truly dead. The tooling will find its way into someone else's product line to some extent, just as has happened with Marx and others, in all likelihood. The current market will not support additional full line importers, in my view, and Bachmann has been appropriately cautious in not expanding the Williams line at a time when consumer spending is perhaps contracting. Kadar owns Bachmann/Williams and K-Line, so a logical possibility is some of the K-Line products showing up in the Williams line. Time will tell.
In my particular case I starting being an operator in 1946 with a Marx set and I was age 6. In 1952 my father bought me American Flyer where I operated and collected mostly Flyer. Because I like office displays and people will touch the trains, it soon became a wise move to switch and K-Line was my choice.
When K-Line collapesed due to the lawsuit et al, I stated boxing my K-Line for storage. Then my office layouts started becoming more and more Williams, Marx and Lionel mix. I have two offices and two layouts.
To me K-Line was a great brand, then I saw where Lionel sued K-Line, MTH sued Lionel and we operators and collectors somewhat suffered.
So it appears to me K-Line will join Marx, Kusan, Ives, Unique and many others in fond memories.
Personally, I saw this coming. Lionel did basically the same thing with the American Flyer name. This is one of the reasons that I am not a modern Lionel guy.
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