I have experienced an interesting phenomenon with original Flyer but mainly with new Flyer by Lionel smoke output. Smoke output from most AF by Lionel steam locomotives is mediocre at best using traditional American Flyer transformers. However when I use a MTH Z-1000 transformer the locomotives become smoke belching behemoths even at minimal speeds! It also affects classic Gilbert AF steam locomotives to a degree. The Flyer by Lionel locomotives that I have seen this effect with are the reissue of the Union Pacific Northern and the dock sider
The only thing I can postulate is it has something to do with the way the voltage sine wave is generated by the newer MTH transformer. I look forward to hear from anyone that has additional information about why this happens or has had a similar experience,
I will anxiously await the responses of the experts on this one.,
If this is true, I am gonna buy me a MTH Z-1000 transformer !
Rich
Alton Junction
Believe me the effect is real. I was showing my wife last night the AF by Lionel northern and a 302 Atlantic, Running the northern at near max voltage with the 6 heavy weight pullmans by lionel behind it you saw barely a wisp from it with a 30B transformer. I put the train on the track next to it powered by a Z-1000 and at the slowest speed the northern will run at hugh puffs emanated from the stack. With the 302 Atlantic the results were similar but not as dramatic.
My wife response was leave it powered by the Z-1000 as she likes to see the smoke.
I don't know what waveform the Z-1000 puts out; but, from your experience, it seems that it could not be a sinusoid. In that case, it contains harmonics, at multiples of the fundamental 60-hertz frequency. If the voltage contains a large component of such high-frequency harmonics, a possible explanation is that the motor, because of its inductance, is seeing mainly the fundamental voltage, while the non-inductive smoke generator sees the full RMS voltage of the waveform, which is significantly greater.
Bob Nelson
I have an old MRC rectifier that could provide DC pulse power to HO locomotives so they would operate at slower speeds, The way I understand that this worked was a high pulse of power of short duration. By your response I wonder if the Z-1000 is similar. Some companies advertise that their products produce a full sine wave form. MTH is not one company that does. The other question I have is this detremental to the smoke unit?
Major, Came across you post & subsequent thread, while I was researching the same issue. I currently have the AF 18B, Lionel 1033 & KW, which I believe after watching these video's use "smooth sine wave". I also have the MTH Z-1000. The link below from LionelCS should be helpful, if you haven't discovered this already. There are two back-to-back video's in this link, so you'll want to watch both of them.
http://youtu.be/1Ilj3p-Ov3c
Lots of wrong information in that video. I don't know where to start. His description of waveforms is seriously muddled, confusing peak, average, and root-mean-square voltage. The waveforms he calls "chopped" are "phase controlled"; chopping is something else. I suspect that the meter he's using to match voltages is not a true-rms meter, resulting in higher voltage from the CW80. The CW80 uses a 20-volt transformer, not 18.
(I saw only one video.)
Thank you Bob for correcting me, as I obviously do not have your expertise. It does bother me that these YouTube videos (which ran back to back when I viewed them this morning & which are accessable via Lionel.com's website), felt were helpful to me and/or others who may have viewed them. Again, I'm no electrician & feel bad that I may have offered what I thought was helpful to both me and maybe others. For what it's worth, here is the 2 video, which discusses chopped vs smooth...as the presenter puts it.
http://youtu.be/OMR25JoCZiU
Let me take a stab at explaining the voltage thing:
Sine-wave voltages (and currents) are usually described by their root-mean-square (RMS) value. This is the square-root, of the average, of the square of the instantaneous voltage. For a sine wave, this measurement is about 71 percent (the square-root of 1/2) of the peak of the waveform. It can be thought of as the DC voltage that would generate the same average amount of heat in a resistor. So, for the many applications of electricity that involve resistive loads, like flatirons, incandescent lamps, and heaters, 120 volts RMS AC is interchangeable with 120 volts DC. In fact, the RMS value of a DC voltage is just its DC value. When we talk of a 1033 transformer's output voltage as being 16 volts, that is 16 volts RMS. The peak voltage is the square-root of 2, times 16, or about 22.6 volts.
You can buy "true RMS" meters to measure the RMS voltage, but they are expensive. Most "AC" meters actually measure the average of the absolute value of the voltage. This is not the same, but it is proportional to the RMS voltage--as long as you are measuring a sine wave. The average of the absolute value is almost exactly 90 percent of the RMS value of the sine wave; but the meters are built with the scale fudged to read high by the right amount so that you can use them to measure the RMS voltage of a sine-wave reliably--but not other waveforms.
"Transformers" like the CW80 use an old trick borrowed from light dimmers, of turning the AC voltage on part-way through each half-cycle, usually with a device called a "triac", which shuts itself off at the end of the half-cycle. This is called "phase control", not "chopping". The resulting waveform obviously can have a shape very different from a true sine wave, which makes it problematical to try to measure its RMS value with a conventional meter. In fact, the meter will read 4 volts low with a CW80 in the middle of its output voltage range. This is why I suspect that the CW80 was actually set quite a bit higher than the 1033. I have published a correction table several times on the forum.
Aside from erroneous voltage settings, there are differences in how the older series-wound motors and modern DC "can" motors respond to various waveforms. The same is true of smoke units, although the traditional kind is just a heater, which will therefore give the same heat for the same RMS voltage, whatever its waveform.
The transformer inside the CW80 puts out 20 volts; but the maximum output at the terminals is 18. This is because, even at the highest output, a little of each half-cycle is being shaved off. They do this so that they can produce the DC component that triggers the whistle or bell by unbalancing the turn-on times for the two polarities of half-cycles, one earlier, one later.
I do not claim to know the how it happens, but smoke output is improved with the modern transformers like the MTH Z1000 that do not use the 1940's/1950's technology. Plus the newer transformers should be use with locomotives that have TMCC / Legacy anyhow. Thanks for the link!
Bob has provided an outstanding explanation. It is the first time I have seen a write up on the forum that explains average, RMS and peak voltage for a sine wave. It also corrects the terminology of phase control rather than chopping a waveform.
New AF by Lionel has greater smoke output with modern non-sinusoidal transformers because they are designed to make maximum use of the waveform. Original Gilbert smoke units are just resistive heaters so greater smoke output is the side effect of a different response to the waveform by the open three pole motors as was described above. I see the same phenomenon with some original AF engines but not consistently.
Tom
Interesting. I was running my Marx trains today, using a Marx transformer, and just happened to notice that one of the 666 steamers was a bit wimpy in the smoke department. I set it as aide. While testing a second train, I switched over to a Lionel CW80. Still wondering about the wimpy smoker, I put it back on the track and ran it with the CW80. To my surprise, the little steamer produced smoke like WC Fields! The only change was the transformer.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.
Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month